Emergecncy Services vs. Cadet Programs

[SarDragon]

[redacted]  Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.

Please define recently.

[floridacyclist]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning

Again, flight training accomplishes the same seriousness

And like I said (and you left out)

Sure there are other ways to achieve the same results and those are totally valid too as long as they work, this is just one way that works for us.

We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES.

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school

Sometimes here in FL, we don't have to go anywhere..they come to us..the workplaces or schools might not even be open or standing. Why should CAP sit around talking about how "we used to be able to help the community, now all we do is stand in line to get our ice and water from the Girl Scouts"?

It doesnt interfere, I think its just placed to much emphasis on. CAP is an aviation organization (I am not speaking of AE) We should focus on aviation and the Air Force. I think becaue a lot of Senior Members arent aviaton or military focused they dont bring that to the cadets

We choose who we recruit. If you want more pilots, recruit them. If your unit has too many ground-pounders, don't recruit them. Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

I know that as a family of 6 (oldest moved out), we can barely afford uniforms, let alone flight training - if we even had a CFI. Luckily, camping is cheap

Another thought is that even in the Air Force, only 5% are pilots..the rest are support staff. We probably have a pretty close percentage if not higher.

[JayT]

You're wrong Captain, cadets can fly with air crew. It's a matter of age, not cadet v. senior.

[jeders]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

[cnitas]

Flights just dont mean O-flights. A cadet can actully become a pilot inCAP> Infact, I heard of a story eventhough I never et the young man of a cadet that went al the way up to CFI in CAP. (well, maybe he did the complex stuff somewher else) but he was the only cadet CFI I ever heard of.

Yes, I am well aware that a cadet CAN become a pilot, the fact is that flight training is not a primary function of the CP.  A very small minority of cadets ever begin any sort of flight training with CAP, with an even smaller minority going beyond their solo flights.  Perhaps if we had a large number of CFI's willing to donate their time and money that would be different... (A BIG thank you! to those who do)

Now, I wish I could tell prospective members, join CAP and learn to fly...but after 4 months into their membership and wondering when they were going to get their wings, they would be able to see through the lie.  

Hmm...I wonder if this has anyting to do with CAP's retention problem??  

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Could not have said it better myself. Except to add that some folks need to read their CAP history text again.

Yes, we are an aviation oriented organization, one who's ES & Civil Defense mission (what we now for political correctness sake call Homeland Security) is not a new thing that came along in the last 6 years, it is our Original Congressionally chartered mission (read reason for existing) as of Dec. 1st 1941.  The Cadet Program grew out of a need to bring younger folks into CAP to help man and staff the CD mission, serve their communities, and train for military service, as older folks got sent off to War overseas.   Aside for CAP efforts to pre-flight train Army Air Corps Cadets and help bolster the number of available pilots for the war effort, the CP  was meant to feed CAP's need for Senior Members to preform Wartime CD & ES missions.   So you see The Cadet Program was never meant to be an end unto itself nor should it be.  If you really want to fulfill the goal of the CAP cadet program then once you are 18 yrs of age, go and sign up for Military or Public Health Service or stay in CAP become a Senior Member and support CAP's Missions. Just please, do not get your Milestone award and decide that now its time to cash in on your CAP Cadet Program only time.

Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.

I dont get into the constitution or have read the history. sorry, I dont have time to get that deep in CAP. I am a young man trying to make a living in America. All I know is I want to inspire young people to achieve goals,especially if those goals are flying or being a military officer.

[Conical]

Yes, please define recently.  I have been a member of, or at least associated with,CAP since 1975 and the cadet program as one of the missions of CAP existed waaay back then.  I know there are folks who predate me on this thread that can probably say the same thing.  If you mean that the current format is recent then that may be closer to fact, but if my memory serves me correctly the cadet program has been around since about 1943 or 44.  It has changed since then, but so have other aspects/missions of CAP.

[Dragoon]

Yes, please define recently.  I have been a member of, or at least associated with,CAP since 1975 and the cadet program as one of the missions of CAP existed waaay back then.  I know there are folks who predate me on this thread that can probably say the same thing.  If you mean that the current format is recent then that may be closer to fact, but if my memory serves me correctly the cadet program has been around since about 1943 or 44.  It has changed since then, but so have other aspects/missions of CAP.

It's been around forever, and CAP has called it a mission since at least the 60s. But when was it first mentioned in law?  Did PL 478 or 557 set up the cadet program as a mission, or did that only occur in 2000 with the law that set up our statement of work with USAF?  I honestly don't know.

[Dragoon]

Now, I wish I could tell prospective members, join CAP and learn to fly...but after 4 months into their membership and wondering when they were going to get their wings, they would be able to see through the lie.  

Hmm...I wonder if this has anyting to do with CAP's retention problem??  

Yes, and that's one of CAP's problems.  The primary draw of aerospace ed isn't learing about engineering or launching model rockets - it's learning to fly.  The one thing we can't actually afford to do for most of our cadets.

The great thing about Ground Team is the great thing about drill and ceremonies - it's relatively cheap and can be done with a very nice teacher to student ratio.  Learning to fly requires lots more bucks and qualified instructors than CAP can manage.

And that's why so many of our cadets join the Army and USMC - because due to lack of resources, their CAP time better prepared them to be groundpounders than airmen! 

And I've got no idea how to fix this.

[jeders]

And that's why so many of our cadets join the Army and USMC - because due to lack of resources, their CAP time better prepared them to be groundpounders than airmen!

And I've got no idea how to fix this.

I wouldn't really say that. Just because we don't fly doesn't mean we aren't preparing people to be airmen. Just like we are preparing people to be good sailors even though we don't sail. We are training people to prepare themselves to be leaders by giving them a rounded out military exposure.

As far as some places stressing ES over CP or CP over ES, it's cyclical. As with all things I think in 10 years we'll be having this exact same conversation only from the other side.

[star1151]

Perhaps if we had a large number of CFI's willing to donate their time and money that would be different... (A BIG thank you! to those who do)

Gee, I've been told there's not much flying for CFI's to do in CAP....

[BillB]

The cadet program was started in October 1942. It was primarily a route to pre-flight training for USAAF. The cadet program has been considered a part of AE since 1946. As long as a cadet met CAA requirements plus minimum of 100 hours solo, he could fly on missions regardless of age. (17 year old holding private license as example, I know I was one of them) Therefore there was no distinction as to the "missions" of CAP, cadet programs was part and parcel of the existing 1945 programs

[SJFedor]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

Eh, not so much.

PSC, OSC, IC, MSO, and a few others require you to be 21 as a prerequisite. I'm not gonna go looking through 60-3 to find which ones, but there are some. I know, because I hit a roadblock at age 20 when I completed AOBD and wanted to go higher.

And I think what Capt Floyd was meaning was that MOST cadets are barred from those activities. Not those 18+ that choose to go that track, but the 12-17.9 year olds.

[SJFedor]

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

Not just that. I'm sure that's a part of it, but I have a feeling that becoming an infantryman, Ranger, medic, etc is, in an 18 year old's eyes, something more easily obtained then becoming a pilot for one of the services.

Imagine, you're an 18 year old getting ready to graduate from high school, full of piss and vinegar, ready to take on the world. You get presented w/ two options. First, you can enlist, go to basic, be a soldier, blow stuff up, be a Ranger, medic, etc etc. And do so pretty quickly, let's say 4-6 months at the min to 1-2 years at the max. Second is to go to college for 4 years, have to do MORE school, of which you just spent the last 12-15 years doing (if you did Pre-K and all that fancy stuff) and then maybe get to become a pilot.

For those that have the foresight to look beyond 20 minutes from now, those are our cadets who dream to be pilots. Many cadets (and kids in general) want something that's A) cool, B) sounds "fun", and C) will happen quickly. It's them just wanting rapid gratification as much as it is the adults selling the non-aviation stuff.

For example, there's a C/Maj in my home unit (I live at group, but this is the unit I go to weekly) who signed his contract not too long ago to be  a US Navy Corpsman. I've been working in an inner city ER/Trauma center for almost 2 years now, and when he said this, first thing I said, being the pilot, was "well, why not be a pilot?". He doesn't want to. My second question was "Why don't you go to college, get your RN, get commissioned, and do aeromed evac or something like that?" Takes too long, wants to be out in it NOW. He'll leave the service as an EMT-P, which is great, and there's a need for good, knowledgeable paramedics all thoughout. But, there's also a huge need for RNs, and moreso, RNs that go and get their EMT or EMT-P along with it. All of our flight nurses are required to be at least EMT-Bs, and most are EMT-Ps as well. More money, better lifestyle, more better paying careers after service. But he wants the quick, NOW route, and I think a lot of kids do think that way.

[SarDragon]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

[fyrpilot2202]

I am brand new to CAP senior programs, but I have 26 years background in Emergency Services. I am primarily looking to build my squadron's relationship to the other local ES agencies, particularly those having SAR responsibilities.  Over the years, I have seen auxiliary groups at work in various capacities on major forest fires, search missions, and simulations.  Having well trained cadets and seniors available to help organize and staff incident positions is an asset to any community; the cadets (hopefully) will find the training & experience of value in their future endeavors.  I really think the 3 areas of focus / training  presents complementary choices, each arena offers a chance for leadership and learning.

[flyguy06]

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

Not just that. I'm sure that's a part of it, but I have a feeling that becoming an infantryman, Ranger, medic, etc is, in an 18 year old's eyes, something more easily obtained then becoming a pilot for one of the services.

Imagine, you're an 18 year old getting ready to graduate from high school, full of piss and vinegar, ready to take on the world. You get presented w/ two options. First, you can enlist, go to basic, be a soldier, blow stuff up, be a Ranger, medic, etc etc. And do so pretty quickly, let's say 4-6 months at the min to 1-2 years at the max. Second is to go to college for 4 years, have to do MORE school, of which you just spent the last 12-15 years doing (if you did Pre-K and all that fancy stuff) and then maybe get to become a pilot.

For those that have the foresight to look beyond 20 minutes from now, those are our cadets who dream to be pilots. Many cadets (and kids in general) want something that's A) cool, B) sounds "fun", and C) will happen quickly. It's them just wanting rapid gratification as much as it is the adults selling the non-aviation stuff.

For example, there's a C/Maj in my home unit (I live at group, but this is the unit I go to weekly) who signed his contract not too long ago to be  a US Navy Corpsman. I've been working in an inner city ER/Trauma center for almost 2 years now, and when he said this, first thing I said, being the pilot, was "well, why not be a pilot?". He doesn't want to. My second question was "Why don't you go to college, get your RN, get commissioned, and do aeromed evac or something like that?" Takes too long, wants to be out in it NOW. He'll leave the service as an EMT-P, which is great, and there's a need for good, knowledgeable paramedics all thoughout. But, there's also a huge need for RNs, and moreso, RNs that go and get their EMT or EMT-P along with it. All of our flight nurses are required to be at least EMT-Bs, and most are EMT-Ps as well. More money, better lifestyle, more better paying careers after service. But he wants the quick, NOW route, and I think a lot of kids do think that way.

Again Steven, it depends on what group of kids you are talking to. I can tell you first habd that her einthe inner city most african american kids have no desire to be a Ranger. Their parents try to talk them out of going to the military all together, but if they are determined to go, their parents will tel them to go to college first and become an officer.

I was not one of those kids. When I found out that couldnt fly inthe servie due to my vision, I wanted to go into the Infantry (which I did ) and be a ranger (which I almost did but twisted my ankle at Ranger school and the Guard wouldnt send me back darn it) So, it all depends onthe kids you deal with I guess. I dont know. Are you comming to Florda to the SER encampment?

[Major Carrales]

As a believer in the "WHOLE CAP APPROACH" I think the notion that someone might be "pigeon-holed and rutted" into a certain place based on their personal interests, be it Cadets or ES, is a bit narrowminded and may say more about the person who holds that belief than the subject of such a remark.

Those that do not at least provide the most tacit support to all three missions of CAP with a focus in one is asking for frustration and limiting the scope of their unit.

One doesn't have to be all things to all people; but please, looking at a supporter of Cadet Programs as the harbinger of ES is making a specious comparison.  Give the person a chance to at least make a single descision and administer their policy before taking a whack.  But, then again, that is just my take on the matter.

[Trouble]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

Sorry I had not been able to responded sooner.

I was referring to the latest changes to the law back in 2000.  My understanding is that prior to that change the CP was not part of our "Official Reason to Exist" as far as the US Government and USAF was concerned.   I am working to locate the documents, but I do remember being greatly surprised myself when I read the detail of those changes a while ago and came to realize that the CP was not, at least had not been,  a government assigned Mission of CAP.  Even though CAP has been calling it a mission for as long as I have been in (17 years).

[Major Carrales]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

Sorry I had not been able to responded sooner.

I was referring to the latest changes to the law back in 2000.  My understanding is that prior to that change the CP was not part of our "Official Reason to Exist" as far as the US Government and USAF was concerned.   I am working to locate the documents, but I do remember being greatly surprised myself when I read the detail of those changes a while ago and came to realize that the CP was not, at least had not been,  a government assigned Mission of CAP.  Even though CAP has been calling it a mission for as long as I have been in (17 years).

The thing that I heard was that the Cadet Program was still a CAP Mission, however, its focus is no longer providing airmen for the USAF and other servicemen, but rather to build effective citizens.  Could this be what you remembered?