Emergecncy Services vs. Cadet Programs

[flyguy06]

I was just curious about something after reading another thread that got locked. Why does it matter if a member is more into Cadet Programs than anything else? Again, and maybe its just the people that visit captalk.net, but everyone in CAP isnt big on search and rescue or homeland security.

I joined CAP and conitune in CAP because I want to inspire young people to be leaders and to pursue careers in the military as aviators.  I want to inspire young people to be better than they are today and to make right desicions.

Now dont get me wrong. I am a mission observer and scanner, and I used to be a GT leader. I want to eventually become a mission pilot if I can find somebody to train me. But thats not my main purpose for being in CAP. And its not the main purpose for many members.

My Squadron is located in an urban inner city area. I would say mostoof our members know nothing about ES or have even heard of a GES or know what NIMS or ICS is. When they come to us about membership I ask them what do they want to do and the majority of them say "I want to work with cadets"

So, I think there are all kinds of peole in CAP. Not just the search and rescuers. Thats one issue i have with CAP today as opposed to when I was younger in 1990. We have left our Air Force roots and have somehow adopted this Homeland Security ES mindset. Wher edid that come from?

[Tubacap]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

[Tubacap]

In reading back, flyguy, I do agree with you, I think that we should all have a basic understanding of all of our missions.

[capchiro]

Tubacap, I think Flyguy06 is actually saying that he isn't interested in ES very much and feels that we have lost our Air Force roots in aviation.  While concurring that ES is a CAP mission, it is not in the CAP cadet curriculum and is not required for progression in the CAP cadet program.  If one has enough time to work ES into the program along with implementing the full cadet program that is fine, as long as it is optional for the cadets.  the cadet program is very intense and it is very extensive.  If a cadet is not progressing fairly regularly in the cadet program, I am not sure that he/she has enough time/resources to work on ES.  Some cadet squadrons put too much emphasis on ES and it detracts from the main purpose of the cadet program.  As usual, JMHO..

[JayT]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

But Lieutenant, you're working under the assumption that it's CAP's job to respond to a crisis. While I love ES, it's also not for everyone, nore should it be required.

[jimmydeanno]

Tubacap, I think Flyguy06 is actually saying that he isn't interested in ES very much and feels that we have lost our Air Force roots in aviation.  While concurring that ES is a CAP mission, it is not in the CAP cadet curriculum and is not required for progression in the CAP cadet program.  If one has enough time to work ES into the program along with implementing the full cadet program that is fine, as long as it is optional for the cadets.  the cadet program is very intense and it is very extensive.  If a cadet is not progressing fairly regularly in the cadet program, I am not sure that he/she has enough time/resources to work on ES.  Some cadet squadrons put too much emphasis on ES and it detracts from the main purpose of the cadet program.  As usual, JMHO..

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Flying Pig]

I Cadet Programs for the first 5 years of being a Senior.  Never went on a search, no GT....nothing.  Nor did our Sq.  We were a very dedicated Cadet Programs Sq.  Most all of the Seniors were parents who were their for their cadets and the cadet program.

Sure they had their ES cards, and CPR/First Aid classes, but it was primarily cadets programs.  With several cadets having been accepted to military academies, Embry Riddle and other ROTC programs Id say we did OK without the ES.

My current Sq is almost totally the opposite.

[Al Sayre]

I will agree that a balance must be met, but there is more to the ES part than meets the eye so to speak.  ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders, and gives them a chance to feel that they really are "preparing to be of service to their community state and nation."  

How great does that cadet feel when he/she completes his/her first aid course and knows that he can help someone if the need arises?  What does it do for his confidence when he/she is the only 13 year old in his class that is trained and respected enough to spend his/her weekend beating the bushes with law enforcement for an Alzheimers patient who wandered away from their home but was found safe by HIS/HER Squadron?  How does the cadet feel when he/she knows that he/she has the equipment and training to go spend the night in the woods with his/her Squadron mates or that his training allows him/her to go to any mission in the country and check in and perform useful tasks?  How many 13 year olds in his/her class get to stand on a taxiway and direct aircraft at a mission base?  

There is more to the Cadet program than drill and aerospace lectures,Self confidence and life skills are something that the cadet program emphasizes, and ES is a good way for cadets to gain them.

[capchiro]

Unfortunately, in my years of experience, I have seen very few squadrons that can do both cadet programs and ES adequately.  Proper ES is very intensive and time consumming to train and maintain proficiency in.  Considering the shortness of meetings and all of the other activities cadets do, school, church, sports, band, etc., it is very hard to work in a good ES program.  There is also the consideration that some senior ES squadrons and outside groups or "customers" don't want the liability or perceived liability of working with cadets and that places ES in a secondary position to the cadet program training as directed by regulations.

[jeders]

Personally, I believe that the CP should take whatever direction the cadets want it to take. If the majority want to focus on Drill competitions and just progressing through the ranks, then as a SM I'm there to help facilitate that. If they want to do a lot of ES stuff, again I'm just there to facilitate that. Same if they want to focus on aerospace instead of either above choice.

However, when we get new cadets, I always give them an introduction to all three things. For CP, obviously just the leadership classes are good for that. For ES I give GES to all new cadets or some other demonstration of ES. For AE I usually go into the model rocketry program and model rocketry competitions. I do this because the cadet that joins to be a hard charging ground team member may find out he/she likes model rocketry more. The cadet that wants to lead an honor guard may decide that ES is cooler.

In short, as DCC I point the local CP in the direction that the cadets want to go, but I bring in other stuff so that they are exposed to it and because they may like it better.

[Walkman]

ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders... 

I think that's a valid point. In the BSA, they train leaders in the "methods of scouting", one of which (no surprise) is outdoor activities. Not so much because they want everyone to become little Baden-Powells, but because something different happens when we're outdoors.

I'm going to agree that all of us, cadets & seniors, need to be at least familiar with all aspects of CAP. It builds better, more well rounded people and leaders.

[jimmydeanno]

While cadets may like more than model rocketry, at least model rocketry is a program that falls under the CP.  But there are a whole lot of activities that cadets participate in that builds confidence and isn't marching around on the drill pad or sitting through AE lectures.  Cadets can participate in activities like confidence courses, rappelling, bivouacs, etc.  So they see it as part of their curriculum and don't have to choose.

I can agree that a cadet should be able to participate in ES should they choose, however, all too often you see cadets that develop intense interests in ES and loose focus of their progress in the CP, I have two in my squadron.  The first is a C/A1C that almost has a clasp on his red service.  He's not a "bad kid" but simply doesn't see the AE, Leadership, Drill, etc interesting - but what he does find interesting is ES.  The second is a C/SSgt with a clasp on his red service.  He thinks the CP is "too soft" and would rather go to Ranger School to develop ES skills so he can get more "out of this second rate JROTC program."

There is probably a reason that cadet requirements for promotion don't say "qualify as a GTM-3" anywhere, but I don't have it.

[Al Sayre]

To me, that falls under running a balanced program... Kind of like you don't let the kids eat dessert until after they've finished their dinner.  JMHO

[ZigZag911]

Since ES is one of the three CAP missions, I believe it should be part of the CP curriculum....not that every cadet (or senior leading cadets) needs to be ground team or air crew qualified....but I think every cadet should qualify in GES (perhaps for the Mitchell) and that some further training ought to be part of the Phase 3 & 4 curricula....need not be intense, could be as simple as ARC Basic First Aid & CPR.

[flyguy06]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

Yes, I understand, but what if they are not interested in it? I cant make them come to a wweekend GT training event. And you say you require cadets to be at least GT3. Why that? Why not marshallers or msn Oservers or scanners? Why does it specifically have to be GT for cadets? Cadets can be commo folks. They can be aircrew if over 18 and they can be support staff.  If I told my members we were going to take a trip to the woods for the weekend, I may get two to show up

[flyguy06]

I will agree that a balance must be met, but there is more to the ES part than meets the eye so to speak.  ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders, and gives them a chance to feel that they really are "preparing to be of service to their community state and nation."  

How great does that cadet feel when he/she completes his/her first aid course and knows that he can help someone if the need arises?  What does it do for his confidence when he/she is the only 13 year old in his class that is trained and respected enough to spend his/her weekend beating the bushes with law enforcement for an Alzheimers patient who wandered away from their home but was found safe by HIS/HER Squadron?  How does the cadet feel when he/she knows that he/she has the equipment and training to go spend the night in the woods with his/her Squadron mates or that his training allows him/her to go to any mission in the country and check in and perform useful tasks?  How many 13 year olds in his/her class get to stand on a taxiway and direct aircraft at a mission base?  

There is more to the Cadet program than drill and aerospace lectures,Self confidence and life skills are something that the cadet program emphasizes, and ES is a good way for cadets to gain them.

they get that same feeling of satisfaction when they can be in charge of 10-20 of their peers. they get that same staisfaction when they can plan and coordinate meetings on their own without the help of Senior Members.

I am not trying to make excuses but if you take a kid from the inner city who comes from a background wher elove of country is not preached a lot and he wil have a challeneg trying to understand a lot of the values we try to instil in cadets today. i am not saying its impossible, but it is a challenge. Learning First Aid doesnt come easy to everyone. My cadets love to drill. They do not like clasroom stuff. Only th flying foucused ones like learning about flying and thats it. If I were to have a class on search techniques or first aid, there wouldnt be much of an ineterest.

Capchiro is right in I was saying while ES is good its not a requirement

[flyguy06]

Since ES is one of the three CAP missions, I believe it should be part of the CP curriculum....not that every cadet (or senior leading cadets) needs to be ground team or air crew qualified....but I think every cadet should qualify in GES (perhaps for the Mitchell) and that some further training ought to be part of the Phase 3 & 4 curricula....need not be intense, could be as simple as ARC Basic First Aid & CPR.

Agan, I have to say in my unit I wouldnt get much participationm from cadets if I had a first aid class. ow do I know? Because I tried it. A while ago we had 20 active cadets. I had a first aid class and four showed up to it. I had a aviation ground school class and 17 showed up for it.  What does that say?

[Dragoon]

I firmly believe that as a cadet, ES was much more valuable to me than achievement tests and marching.

But that said, ES is NOT currently a required part of CP.  Mebbe it ought to be, but it's not.

And not only that, but both ES and CP are complicated enough that it may be difficult for some units to do both well.

I think it's a crime that CAP assumes every unit in the organization should be supporting all missions.  Horsehockey!  USAF Intell units don't fly planes.  USAF fighter units don't refuel bombers.  USAF medical units don't fix trucks.

Why the heck does CAP assume that a bunch of part-times have the ability to do it all?

I think we'd be better off with more specialized squadrons.  Better to do a few things well than do a million things poorly.

[thefischNX01]

I've had the same conversations with my C/CC and his staff.  My C/CC is heavily involved in emergency services.  He wants everyone involved in it on some level, but there are cadets in my unit with little to no interest in such things.  He wanted everyone to get GTM-3, I thought it would be appropriate to let the cadets choose whatever they wanted.  However, I do see SAREXs and similar exercises as a way to test oneself in a new environment.  Therefore, we encourage cadets to take up an ES rating (FLM, MRO, GTM or UDF), although I am careful not to push them into it.

There are still a couple of cadets who don't go, and that's fine.  I just let them know that SAREX's are a good way to meet people outside of the squadron and to test oneself in a challenging, high octane environment. 

[CAP_truth]

I think all members should have a overview and training in ES, as well as CP and AE. Even if they don't use it they would have the GES, ROA, first aid, DR. training. Even in a urban environment there can be disasters where ES training would come into play.

[flyguy06]

I think we are getting away from the Air Force and more into homeland security. What  happened to the days when we had a strong relationship withe USAF. I remember when I was a cadet and we went to encampments and used to watch these "Air Force Now" films. they were so motivating to me. You guys are right, for some reason a lot of cadets would rather go out to the woods then to fly airplanes. I never understood this. When I recruit and tell the name of my organization is Civl Air Patrol, they think flying. How is it that cadets could think ground team or homeland security. I think senior members emphasize ground stuff and de emphasize flying and air force careers.

Another thread on this site asks the question why CAP loosing pilots. I think CAP has a surge of non pilots and since they dont fly, they emphasize the non flying activities in CAP. Well, my squadorn is made up of mostly pilots. They are older pilots like in their 70's plus. We have some Tuskegee Airmen in our unit. And so all they do is talk flying, and Air Force. You wil hear very few conversations about ground pouding (you may hear it from me cause I am a grunt).

But I have always enjoyed flying and promoting flying careers. WIWAC, we had Academy liasion officers come to our squadron and talk about their school(it would mostly be Air Force and Navy. never west Point). Most of our cadets back then went on to military aviation flying jobs.

I dont think GES should be part of the cadet program. We are an aviation based organization, not a First respondr based organization. We should require O-flights and things related to aviation. If young people want to be First repsonders they have groups for that such as EMS Explorers.

[JayT]

I think all members should have a overview and training in ES, as well as CP and AE. Even if they don't use it they would have the GES, ROA, first aid, DR. training. Even in a urban environment there can be disasters where ES training would come into play.

But who says CAP would be called to response?

[Tubacap]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

Yes, I understand, but what if they are not interested in it? I cant make them come to a wweekend GT training event. And you say you require cadets to be at least GT3. Why that? Why not marshallers or msn Oservers or scanners? Why does it specifically have to be GT for cadets? Cadets can be commo folks. They can be aircrew if over 18 and they can be support staff.  If I told my members we were going to take a trip to the woods for the weekend, I may get two to show up

As commander, I would be okay with cadets pursuing those specialty ratings as well, or in place of GTM3.  GTM3 seemed to be the best place to start in our squadron.  Again, Cadets are required to be cadets first and foremost and really get a firm grasp on what is going on in the cadet program.  In fact we have placed a rule in our squadron that you must be C/Amn (national rule) as well as 14 to participate in the REDCAP part of ES.  At that point in time, with the Command and Line staff helping, I ensure that all cadets are progressing through their ranks at an adequate pace as per 52-16 as well as their own personal goals.

Goal setting is huge inside our squadron.  I am looking for people to set achieveable goals for themselves and their Subordinates (flame away at terminology if you please).  If we never have SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely), you will never get anywhere and your program will suffer.  For the record, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just stating what has happened to me in my various associations in life.  One goal that our squadron has is that everyone be involved at a basic level in ES, once they have attained the ability to progress through the cadet ranks.

Incidentally, I can't imagine anyone saying the cadet program is "soft" if they are held to the honest truth and assessed accurately.  Although I'm sure there are some gung ho cadets out there....

[floridacyclist]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance. Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning or marching in circles can accomplish. At the same time, cadets should be progressing regularly in the standard CP before being allowed to participate in ES; this has proved to be a great motivating factor to several of our cadets.  Sure there are other ways to achieve the same results and those are totally valid too as long as they work, this is just one way that works for us.

We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES. If we want to sell ourselves as community-service-oriented, we have to be able to back up our words. Beyond GES, we have no requirements although we do encourage all to participate in at least one area of ES as "that is where the action is" and regardless of how we may feel about bling and action, this is a program for the kids cadets, and they often do care about those things. We enforce the proper wear of the ES patch, GTM badge, and Comm Patch and encourage cadets to earn these bits of bling for themselves through hard work, attention to detail, and perseverance....but only as long as they are progressing satisfactorily otherwise.

I don't see ES as interfering with the CP...in our case, it has enhanced it as our Hawk staff cadets' (we have 2 in our squadron, pending 3 after next Summer Hawk; one is the Cadet Commander, One is the Cadet Basic Training Flight Sgt/Color Guard Commander, and one is an Element Leader/Deputy Color Guard Commander) have really started pushing everyone to excel at promotions and participation in encampments (which we also treat as nearly mandatory) plus we now have our first Color Guard in several years.

[flyguy06]

As commander, I would be okay with cadets pursuing those specialty ratings as well, or in place of GTM3.  GTM3 seemed to be the best place to start in our squadron.  Again, Cadets are required to be cadets first and foremost and really get a firm grasp on what is going on in the cadet program.  In fact we have placed a rule in our squadron that you must be C/Amn (national rule) as well as 14 to participate in the REDCAP part of ES.  At that point in time, with the Command and Line staff helping, I ensure that all cadets are progressing through their ranks at an adequate pace as per 52-16 as well as their own personal goals.

I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is instead of GES why not make it a requirement to be a c/AMn before they can do an O-ride or take flying lessons The point I am making is why are we focusing on ES instead of flying. Since afterall we are an aviation organization not a first repsonder organization.

Goal setting is very important, so why nopt make it a goal to solo or get a private pilots license, or take the AFOQT while a senior in high school?

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

[/quote]Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning [/quote]

Again, flight training accomplishes the same seriousness



[/quote]We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES.[/quote]

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school



[/quote]I don't see ES as interfering with the CP...in our case, it has enhanced it as our Hawk staff cadets' (we have 2 in our squadron, pending 3 after next Summer Hawk; one is the Cadet Commander, One is the Cadet Basic Training Flight Sgt/Color Guard Commander, and one is an Element Leader/Deputy Color Guard Commander) have really started pushing everyone to excel at promotions and participation in encampments (which we also treat as nearly mandatory) plus we now have our first Color Guard in several years.
[/quote]

It doesnt interfere, I think its just placed to much emphasis on. CAP is abn aviation organization (I am not speaking of AE) We should focus on aviation and the Air Force. I think becaue a lot of Senior Members arent aviaton or military focused they dont bring that to the cadets

[SJFedor]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

[stillamarine]

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school

You have to remember Gene is down here with us. We may not have to take a week off and volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina, they come to us.

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Which goes to my original point that we are loosing far too many pilots in CAP. We are being taken over by people who want to focus on ES. The pilots are leaving the organization.

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

You see when I recruit for CAP, I sale the flying and I get young people who are crazy about flying or engineering careers. These young people would not care to do Ground Team things. It would be a turn off to them.

So, my whole point is I think the focus in CAP is changing due to the membership that we have.

[cnitas]

How do you keep the interest up when O-flight money dries up 6 months into the year?

I think that telling prospective cadets that they can join and fly, while technically true, is not true often enough for that to be THE major selling point.

We have an aircraft, we conduct flights for cadets until the money runs out, we have cadets go to our wing's annual solo school....but if that was all we had to go on, we would be in big trouble.

[flyguy06]

Flights just dont mean O-flights. A cadet can actully become a pilot inCAP> Infact, I heard of a story eventhough I never et the young man of a cadet that went al the way up to CFI in CAP. (well, maybe he did the complex stuff somewher else) but he was the only cadet CFI I ever heard of.

There are opportunities to fly inCAP and as far as money drying up. I have never relied on CAP to remburse me for anything. I mean the plane rents for $30 bucks an hour plus fuel. You cant beat that price on the outside unless you own your own airplane. I would gladly pay out of my pocket 80 bucks as opposed to renting a 172 for $110 at an FBO. Of course I wouldnt wantto do that too many times. So I see your point.

[jeders]

I get what your saying about focus changing because of who's doing the recruiting, but it sounds to me like you want us to go to the other pole. You want the ground pounders to leave because all we sell is the flying, and that's no good either. Plus, just because you sell the ES angle, doesn't meant you aren't also selling the ES flying angle. When I do recruiting I don't sell just one part of the program, because that's dumb, I sell the whole program and go a little more in depth on what is done locally. We don't have a plane at our squadron so selling the "become a cadet CFI" angle doesn't really work, though I still talk about flying.

As far as why selling only ground ES or only flying is dumb, you lose a huge chunk of potential cadets if you sell only one aspect to the exclusion of all others.

Also, I don't think that it's so easy to reduce our problem with losing pilots to simply say we're stressing ES over non-ES flying. I think it's got a lot more to do with limited budgets, not every squadron having an aircraft, an ambiguity as to what missions we can do, as well as what programs we're selling and who we're trying to recruit.

Additionally, we shouldn't stop selling ES-flying to cadets or seniors. Most of the seniors that I know that do flying join because they want to fly on missions, not necessarily because they want to do O-flights or teach cadets to fly.

So while what you say does have an impact on us losing pilots, it's not the only reason. And recruiting by only selling the flight angle isn't gonna help things either, we'll just lose a different group.

[flyguy06]

I agree. Maybe I am selling the flying too much, but just like the ES folks, flying is my passion.

Airplanes do not belong to squadrons. Any pilot in the wing can use any airplane in the wing. I hate it when I hear "Well, our squadrons airplane....." Your squadron does not own nor have an airplane assigned to it. Your unit may coincidentally meet at an airport that coincidentally also has a CAP aircraft assigned to that airport. But it is not the squadrons airplane. Myunit meets at a church. No where near an airport, so when I try to go flying, I get that whole "Talk to such and such squadron" and since such and such squadron doesnt know me, they hassle me about trying to fly a plane I have every right to fly. SO forgive me but that attitude that sqaudrons own airplanes or are assigned gets my goat.

I digress   You are correct. We should sell all parts of CAP and in particular what the local unit is doing.

[jeders]

Airplanes do not belong to squadrons. Any pilot in the wing can use any airplane in the wing. I hate it when I hear "Well, our squadrons airplane....." Your squadron does not own nor have an airplane assigned to it. Your unit may coincidentally meet at an airport that coincidentally also has a CAP aircraft assigned to that airport. But it is not the squadrons airplane. Myunit meets at a church. No where near an airport, so when I try to go flying, I get that whole "Talk to such and such squadron" and since such and such squadron doesnt know me, they hassle me about trying to fly a plane I have every right to fly. SO forgive me but that attitude that sqaudrons own airplanes or are assigned gets my goat.

I agree with this and apologize for miscommunication. I simply continue to use that phrasing as it is simplest to talk about. However, it is certainly much easier to get an airplane when it's in the same city as you and not, as in our case, 100 miles away or more.

I agree. Maybe I am selling the flying too much, but just like the ES folks, flying is my passion.

And my passion happens to be ground ES. Why, because I'm not a pilot so I can't be a MP and I'm not in a squadron that has an airplane (ignore the phrasing) so I can't use my MO rating very much. However, we must all remember that not everyone is interested in just what we are passionate about, and believe me I have to remind myself of this every time I talk to prospective cadets and seniors.

[Major Lord]

Question: Whats the difference between Cadet Programs and Emergency Services?

Answer: Cadet Programs have adult leadership....

Major Lord

[Chappy]

I am a senior member that does all three missions.  And I encourage all potential chaplains to be involved in all three missions. 
The cadet program has as one of the requirements for promotion - a unit activity.  Many times our unit activity involves ES training.  Another cadet may be involved in the color guard or honor guard training. 

I am suprised to find that cadets stay interested in the CP alone.  There have to be other activities that peak their interest that keep them coming to the unit meeting week after week.  Not every cadet interested in CAP wants to fly an airplane.  It takes a lot more folks on the ground to support that aircraft in the air - and most of the flying time is during missions or training for ES.  An ICP has a lot more folks - and cadets needed to be trained so a MP can go on a sortie.  Same thing for the AF.

At one encampment we had a AF Military Chaplain and his Chaplain's Assistant talk about AF careers.  This opened up a big door for many cadets who were religious in nature but also looked towards a military career.

The Civil Air Patrol is capable of handling all three missions...and if your squadron doesn't do ES - find one that does to include your cadets in their training.

[Stonewall]

I've always said I was a 51% CP guy and a 49% ES guy.  So my loyalty and interests are primarily with CP closely followed by ES.

[flyguy06]

I am a senior member that does all three missions.  And I encourage all potential chaplains to be involved in all three missions. 
The cadet program has as one of the requirements for promotion - a unit activity.  Many times our unit activity involves ES training.  Another cadet may be involved in the color guard or honor guard training. 

I am suprised to find that cadets stay interested in the CP alone.  There have to be other activities that peak their interest that keep them coming to the unit meeting week after week.  Not every cadet interested in CAP wants to fly an airplane.  It takes a lot more folks on the ground to support that aircraft in the air - and most of the flying time is during missions or training for ES.  An ICP has a lot more folks - and cadets needed to be trained so a MP can go on a sortie.  Same thing for the AF.

At one encampment we had a AF Military Chaplain and his Chaplain's Assistant talk about AF careers.  This opened up a big door for many cadets who were religious in nature but also looked towards a military career.

The Civil Air Patrol is capable of handling all three missions...and if your squadron doesn't do ES - find one that does to include your cadets in their training.

Well, I think it all depends on where and who you recruit. I volunteer with another organization that teaches youths how to fly. That is wher eI recruit for CAP. So, they all have one common interest.....flying.

[flyguy06]

I know what you mean about not being able to participate in ES. Contrary to what you think of me by my posts, I actually do like ES and I would like to be involved, but as was said earlier because we dont have good access to an aircraft and because I am the only ES qualified person in my Squadron, I am not on anybody's call up list. I also put in to work in CN. Iputin last Feb and havent heard anything yet

[Trouble]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Could not have said it better myself. Except to add that some folks need to read their CAP history text again.

Yes, we are an aviation oriented organization, one who's ES & Civil Defense mission (what we now for political correctness sake call Homeland Security) is not a new thing that came along in the last 6 years, it is our Original Congressionally chartered mission (read reason for existing) as of Dec. 1st 1941.  The Cadet Program grew out of a need to bring younger folks into CAP to help man and staff the CD mission, serve their communities, and train for military service, as older folks got sent off to War overseas.   Aside for CAP efforts to pre-flight train Army Air Corps Cadets and help bolster the number of available pilots for the war effort, the CP  was meant to feed CAP's need for Senior Members to preform Wartime CD & ES missions.   So you see The Cadet Program was never meant to be an end unto itself nor should it be.  If you really want to fulfill the goal of the CAP cadet program then once you are 18 yrs of age, go and sign up for Military or Public Health Service or stay in CAP become a Senior Member and support CAP's Missions. Just please, do not get your Milestone award and decide that now its time to cash in on your CAP Cadet Program only time.

Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.

[SarDragon]

[redacted]  Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.

Please define recently.

[floridacyclist]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning

Again, flight training accomplishes the same seriousness

And like I said (and you left out)

Sure there are other ways to achieve the same results and those are totally valid too as long as they work, this is just one way that works for us.

We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES.

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school

Sometimes here in FL, we don't have to go anywhere..they come to us..the workplaces or schools might not even be open or standing. Why should CAP sit around talking about how "we used to be able to help the community, now all we do is stand in line to get our ice and water from the Girl Scouts"?

It doesnt interfere, I think its just placed to much emphasis on. CAP is an aviation organization (I am not speaking of AE) We should focus on aviation and the Air Force. I think becaue a lot of Senior Members arent aviaton or military focused they dont bring that to the cadets

We choose who we recruit. If you want more pilots, recruit them. If your unit has too many ground-pounders, don't recruit them. Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

I know that as a family of 6 (oldest moved out), we can barely afford uniforms, let alone flight training - if we even had a CFI. Luckily, camping is cheap

Another thought is that even in the Air Force, only 5% are pilots..the rest are support staff. We probably have a pretty close percentage if not higher.

[JayT]

You're wrong Captain, cadets can fly with air crew. It's a matter of age, not cadet v. senior.

[jeders]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

[cnitas]

Flights just dont mean O-flights. A cadet can actully become a pilot inCAP> Infact, I heard of a story eventhough I never et the young man of a cadet that went al the way up to CFI in CAP. (well, maybe he did the complex stuff somewher else) but he was the only cadet CFI I ever heard of.

Yes, I am well aware that a cadet CAN become a pilot, the fact is that flight training is not a primary function of the CP.  A very small minority of cadets ever begin any sort of flight training with CAP, with an even smaller minority going beyond their solo flights.  Perhaps if we had a large number of CFI's willing to donate their time and money that would be different... (A BIG thank you! to those who do)

Now, I wish I could tell prospective members, join CAP and learn to fly...but after 4 months into their membership and wondering when they were going to get their wings, they would be able to see through the lie.  

Hmm...I wonder if this has anyting to do with CAP's retention problem??  

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Could not have said it better myself. Except to add that some folks need to read their CAP history text again.

Yes, we are an aviation oriented organization, one who's ES & Civil Defense mission (what we now for political correctness sake call Homeland Security) is not a new thing that came along in the last 6 years, it is our Original Congressionally chartered mission (read reason for existing) as of Dec. 1st 1941.  The Cadet Program grew out of a need to bring younger folks into CAP to help man and staff the CD mission, serve their communities, and train for military service, as older folks got sent off to War overseas.   Aside for CAP efforts to pre-flight train Army Air Corps Cadets and help bolster the number of available pilots for the war effort, the CP  was meant to feed CAP's need for Senior Members to preform Wartime CD & ES missions.   So you see The Cadet Program was never meant to be an end unto itself nor should it be.  If you really want to fulfill the goal of the CAP cadet program then once you are 18 yrs of age, go and sign up for Military or Public Health Service or stay in CAP become a Senior Member and support CAP's Missions. Just please, do not get your Milestone award and decide that now its time to cash in on your CAP Cadet Program only time.

Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.

I dont get into the constitution or have read the history. sorry, I dont have time to get that deep in CAP. I am a young man trying to make a living in America. All I know is I want to inspire young people to achieve goals,especially if those goals are flying or being a military officer.

[Conical]

Yes, please define recently.  I have been a member of, or at least associated with,CAP since 1975 and the cadet program as one of the missions of CAP existed waaay back then.  I know there are folks who predate me on this thread that can probably say the same thing.  If you mean that the current format is recent then that may be closer to fact, but if my memory serves me correctly the cadet program has been around since about 1943 or 44.  It has changed since then, but so have other aspects/missions of CAP.

[Dragoon]

Yes, please define recently.  I have been a member of, or at least associated with,CAP since 1975 and the cadet program as one of the missions of CAP existed waaay back then.  I know there are folks who predate me on this thread that can probably say the same thing.  If you mean that the current format is recent then that may be closer to fact, but if my memory serves me correctly the cadet program has been around since about 1943 or 44.  It has changed since then, but so have other aspects/missions of CAP.

It's been around forever, and CAP has called it a mission since at least the 60s. But when was it first mentioned in law?  Did PL 478 or 557 set up the cadet program as a mission, or did that only occur in 2000 with the law that set up our statement of work with USAF?  I honestly don't know.

[Dragoon]

Now, I wish I could tell prospective members, join CAP and learn to fly...but after 4 months into their membership and wondering when they were going to get their wings, they would be able to see through the lie.  

Hmm...I wonder if this has anyting to do with CAP's retention problem??  

Yes, and that's one of CAP's problems.  The primary draw of aerospace ed isn't learing about engineering or launching model rockets - it's learning to fly.  The one thing we can't actually afford to do for most of our cadets.

The great thing about Ground Team is the great thing about drill and ceremonies - it's relatively cheap and can be done with a very nice teacher to student ratio.  Learning to fly requires lots more bucks and qualified instructors than CAP can manage.

And that's why so many of our cadets join the Army and USMC - because due to lack of resources, their CAP time better prepared them to be groundpounders than airmen! 

And I've got no idea how to fix this.

[jeders]

And that's why so many of our cadets join the Army and USMC - because due to lack of resources, their CAP time better prepared them to be groundpounders than airmen!

And I've got no idea how to fix this.

I wouldn't really say that. Just because we don't fly doesn't mean we aren't preparing people to be airmen. Just like we are preparing people to be good sailors even though we don't sail. We are training people to prepare themselves to be leaders by giving them a rounded out military exposure.

As far as some places stressing ES over CP or CP over ES, it's cyclical. As with all things I think in 10 years we'll be having this exact same conversation only from the other side.

[star1151]

Perhaps if we had a large number of CFI's willing to donate their time and money that would be different... (A BIG thank you! to those who do)

Gee, I've been told there's not much flying for CFI's to do in CAP....

[BillB]

The cadet program was started in October 1942. It was primarily a route to pre-flight training for USAAF. The cadet program has been considered a part of AE since 1946. As long as a cadet met CAA requirements plus minimum of 100 hours solo, he could fly on missions regardless of age. (17 year old holding private license as example, I know I was one of them) Therefore there was no distinction as to the "missions" of CAP, cadet programs was part and parcel of the existing 1945 programs

[SJFedor]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

Eh, not so much.

PSC, OSC, IC, MSO, and a few others require you to be 21 as a prerequisite. I'm not gonna go looking through 60-3 to find which ones, but there are some. I know, because I hit a roadblock at age 20 when I completed AOBD and wanted to go higher.

And I think what Capt Floyd was meaning was that MOST cadets are barred from those activities. Not those 18+ that choose to go that track, but the 12-17.9 year olds.

[SJFedor]

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

Not just that. I'm sure that's a part of it, but I have a feeling that becoming an infantryman, Ranger, medic, etc is, in an 18 year old's eyes, something more easily obtained then becoming a pilot for one of the services.

Imagine, you're an 18 year old getting ready to graduate from high school, full of piss and vinegar, ready to take on the world. You get presented w/ two options. First, you can enlist, go to basic, be a soldier, blow stuff up, be a Ranger, medic, etc etc. And do so pretty quickly, let's say 4-6 months at the min to 1-2 years at the max. Second is to go to college for 4 years, have to do MORE school, of which you just spent the last 12-15 years doing (if you did Pre-K and all that fancy stuff) and then maybe get to become a pilot.

For those that have the foresight to look beyond 20 minutes from now, those are our cadets who dream to be pilots. Many cadets (and kids in general) want something that's A) cool, B) sounds "fun", and C) will happen quickly. It's them just wanting rapid gratification as much as it is the adults selling the non-aviation stuff.

For example, there's a C/Maj in my home unit (I live at group, but this is the unit I go to weekly) who signed his contract not too long ago to be  a US Navy Corpsman. I've been working in an inner city ER/Trauma center for almost 2 years now, and when he said this, first thing I said, being the pilot, was "well, why not be a pilot?". He doesn't want to. My second question was "Why don't you go to college, get your RN, get commissioned, and do aeromed evac or something like that?" Takes too long, wants to be out in it NOW. He'll leave the service as an EMT-P, which is great, and there's a need for good, knowledgeable paramedics all thoughout. But, there's also a huge need for RNs, and moreso, RNs that go and get their EMT or EMT-P along with it. All of our flight nurses are required to be at least EMT-Bs, and most are EMT-Ps as well. More money, better lifestyle, more better paying careers after service. But he wants the quick, NOW route, and I think a lot of kids do think that way.

[SarDragon]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

[fyrpilot2202]

I am brand new to CAP senior programs, but I have 26 years background in Emergency Services. I am primarily looking to build my squadron's relationship to the other local ES agencies, particularly those having SAR responsibilities.  Over the years, I have seen auxiliary groups at work in various capacities on major forest fires, search missions, and simulations.  Having well trained cadets and seniors available to help organize and staff incident positions is an asset to any community; the cadets (hopefully) will find the training & experience of value in their future endeavors.  I really think the 3 areas of focus / training  presents complementary choices, each arena offers a chance for leadership and learning.

[flyguy06]

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

Not just that. I'm sure that's a part of it, but I have a feeling that becoming an infantryman, Ranger, medic, etc is, in an 18 year old's eyes, something more easily obtained then becoming a pilot for one of the services.

Imagine, you're an 18 year old getting ready to graduate from high school, full of piss and vinegar, ready to take on the world. You get presented w/ two options. First, you can enlist, go to basic, be a soldier, blow stuff up, be a Ranger, medic, etc etc. And do so pretty quickly, let's say 4-6 months at the min to 1-2 years at the max. Second is to go to college for 4 years, have to do MORE school, of which you just spent the last 12-15 years doing (if you did Pre-K and all that fancy stuff) and then maybe get to become a pilot.

For those that have the foresight to look beyond 20 minutes from now, those are our cadets who dream to be pilots. Many cadets (and kids in general) want something that's A) cool, B) sounds "fun", and C) will happen quickly. It's them just wanting rapid gratification as much as it is the adults selling the non-aviation stuff.

For example, there's a C/Maj in my home unit (I live at group, but this is the unit I go to weekly) who signed his contract not too long ago to be  a US Navy Corpsman. I've been working in an inner city ER/Trauma center for almost 2 years now, and when he said this, first thing I said, being the pilot, was "well, why not be a pilot?". He doesn't want to. My second question was "Why don't you go to college, get your RN, get commissioned, and do aeromed evac or something like that?" Takes too long, wants to be out in it NOW. He'll leave the service as an EMT-P, which is great, and there's a need for good, knowledgeable paramedics all thoughout. But, there's also a huge need for RNs, and moreso, RNs that go and get their EMT or EMT-P along with it. All of our flight nurses are required to be at least EMT-Bs, and most are EMT-Ps as well. More money, better lifestyle, more better paying careers after service. But he wants the quick, NOW route, and I think a lot of kids do think that way.

Again Steven, it depends on what group of kids you are talking to. I can tell you first habd that her einthe inner city most african american kids have no desire to be a Ranger. Their parents try to talk them out of going to the military all together, but if they are determined to go, their parents will tel them to go to college first and become an officer.

I was not one of those kids. When I found out that couldnt fly inthe servie due to my vision, I wanted to go into the Infantry (which I did ) and be a ranger (which I almost did but twisted my ankle at Ranger school and the Guard wouldnt send me back darn it) So, it all depends onthe kids you deal with I guess. I dont know. Are you comming to Florda to the SER encampment?

[Major Carrales]

As a believer in the "WHOLE CAP APPROACH" I think the notion that someone might be "pigeon-holed and rutted" into a certain place based on their personal interests, be it Cadets or ES, is a bit narrowminded and may say more about the person who holds that belief than the subject of such a remark.

Those that do not at least provide the most tacit support to all three missions of CAP with a focus in one is asking for frustration and limiting the scope of their unit.

One doesn't have to be all things to all people; but please, looking at a supporter of Cadet Programs as the harbinger of ES is making a specious comparison.  Give the person a chance to at least make a single descision and administer their policy before taking a whack.  But, then again, that is just my take on the matter.

[Trouble]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

Sorry I had not been able to responded sooner.

I was referring to the latest changes to the law back in 2000.  My understanding is that prior to that change the CP was not part of our "Official Reason to Exist" as far as the US Government and USAF was concerned.   I am working to locate the documents, but I do remember being greatly surprised myself when I read the detail of those changes a while ago and came to realize that the CP was not, at least had not been,  a government assigned Mission of CAP.  Even though CAP has been calling it a mission for as long as I have been in (17 years).

[Major Carrales]

Capt. Pumphrey, aka Trouble, please define recently for us.

I have a copy of CAPP 150-2, CAP Senior Member Orientation, dated July 1972, that specifies the three missions of CAP - Cadet Program, ES, and Aero Ed. That's 35 years, well over half of CAP's existence.

Sorry I had not been able to responded sooner.

I was referring to the latest changes to the law back in 2000.  My understanding is that prior to that change the CP was not part of our "Official Reason to Exist" as far as the US Government and USAF was concerned.   I am working to locate the documents, but I do remember being greatly surprised myself when I read the detail of those changes a while ago and came to realize that the CP was not, at least had not been,  a government assigned Mission of CAP.  Even though CAP has been calling it a mission for as long as I have been in (17 years).

The thing that I heard was that the Cadet Program was still a CAP Mission, however, its focus is no longer providing airmen for the USAF and other servicemen, but rather to build effective citizens.  Could this be what you remembered?

[flyguy06]

major Carralles,

I am not saying dont provise it to them, I am saying that may not be the interest of the gorup you target. You know the interetstof a cadet when you recruit them. Or you should. We have very limited resources. We cant afford to purchase ES equipment if its never going to be used. If I told my cadets "Hey, we're going on an FTX next month? I already know they are not going to buy the neccessary equipment for that FTX. they are not going to spend the time on it. But if I say "hey, we're gong to have O-flights next month" they will beg their parents and promise to do chores if their parents will bring them to the airport on that day. Its all about knowing your people and what motivates them.

Again, I do not have a lot of money or a lot of time. So, if I invest my time inCAP, I want to make sure it will be worthwhile. Now lest say i did have one or two cadets that wanted to do ES> No problem. I would send them to a close by suadron and let them train with that unit withtheunderstanding that they still belong to me. But again, in my years of doing this, that issue has never come up.

[floridacyclist]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

And how many cadets are over 18? I don't know about your squadron, but in mine we only have one, the vast majority are 17 or younger. Please don't try to confuse the whole meaning of the conversation with an irrelevant semantical twist based on the fact that some cadets choose to remain cadets even after reaching adulthood. You know that we are talking about "kids" here.

[BlackKnight]

In my squadron we give all of our cadets a basic introduction to Emergency Services training.  From that point on they can decide on their own whether they want to include ES qualifications and SAR operations as part of their CAP experience.  Some become pilots, some become GTLs, some do neither, others do both.
Some become drillmasters and collect bling.  There's something for everybody

Here's why we provide that basic ES introduction:

CAPR 52-16 Cadet Progams Management:
Figure 5-1. Encampments: Minimum Course Content & Curriculum Overview
2. CIVIL AIR PATROL FUNDAMENTALS – 10 Hours
2a. Emergency Services: Cadets will receive an introduction to CAP's emergency services mission, which may include actual emergency services training. Opportunities for cadet participation in emergency services should be emphasized.

Also note that CAPR 52-16 Figure 1-1. Suggested Quarterly Schedule shows "Emergency services" as suggested  special training (50 minutes).

So there you go. It's in the cadet program regulation.  You can emphasize ES or not, but if you're running the cadet program the way you're supposed to you have an obligation to expose your cadets to the CAP Emergency Services mission.

BTW, I'm with Stonewall:  51% CP, 49% ES.   

[ZigZag911]

Agan, I have to say in my unit I wouldnt get much participationm from cadets if I had a first aid class. ow do I know? Because I tried it. A while ago we had 20 active cadets. I had a first aid class and four showed up to it. I had a aviation ground school class and 17 showed up for it.  What does that say?

And again, if it was a requirement, as I feel it ought to be, those who wanted to advance would do what was necessary.

Please not, also, that I stipulated minimal ES training for the Mitchell.

I think it's great that your cadets are so interested in ground school, and wish them success in it....however, since cadets are trainees, they need to be oriented to all aspects of the CAP program...once that basic information is acquired, it is only natural that the cadets will focus on areas of personal interest.

[floridacyclist]

I see no problem with bringing up a cadet's lack of participation at his/her next promotion board and asking for an explanation.

[JayT]

I see no problem with bringing up a cadet's lack of participation at his/her next promotion board and asking for an explanation.

And what would be an acceptable explanation?

[floridacyclist]

The board would have to exercise some judgement at that point

[eaglefly]

I was a cadet once upon a time, now I'm a Squadron Commander (the best and worst job in CAP - those of you who have had it know what I'm talking about.)

I don't see it as an ES vs CP thing.  ES actually IS a CP program.    Where else can I teach the kind of real world leadership we are supposed to be instilling in our cadets?   No, Drill is definately NOT real world.   And neither is 'Chain of Command', if I tried pulling 'Chain of Command' at work the way some cadets do at CAP I would not last a day.

Now don't misunderstand,  drill and the other CP things are important.   But they are NOT the end all of learning leadership, or even of learning about the military.  Leadership requires discipline, the kind that comes from within.    I know of no better way to teach/instill that discipline than by giving a young person (who has reached the appropriate level of maturity) the opportunity to do real world work.   To hit a job, do, do it well and have made a difference in the world.    (Yes flying an AC gives me the same jolt, but that is $imply not in the card$ for all cadet$)

In my squadron the Cadets simply LOVE to park AC at air shows, so we have made FLM the first step in becoming an ES operator.    We also want hem to get MRO rated.  After FLM they can work on GTM (They also like to go camping.)

So, ES DOES NOT compete with Drill and the other 'CP' programs, it builds on and complements them.   Yes the Seniors who are running the program have to be sesnitive to the needs and wishes of the cadets.   Meeting this balance requires WORK, but that is what we signed up for when we took on the job as leaders .

Lets don't short change our Cadets, or ourselves, by pitting AE, CP and ES against each other.  ALL of us, Cadet and Senior alike, are supposed to be supporting all three.

End of sermon.

[RiverAux]

The thing that drew me into CAP in the first place back WIWAC was ES.  I was already getting more than enough drill as part of the marching band.  One of my friends was in and got to participate in a missing plane search and was in on the find -- thats what drew me in.  After two years of being in and not having a single mission I left.  The lack of real ES wasn't the primary reason for leaving, but it was a contributing factor.

I'm sure that same streak runs through at least some of our cadets today.  After all, it is the potential to actually do real mission for the AF that sets us apart from the JROTC folks. 

That being said, I am for the well-rounded approach to cadet programs and if all possible the program should let cadets have the option of which direction to head in.  Unfortunately, there are so many options in CAP that the smaller units in particular have to make a choice.  Do they want a ground team or a reasonably proficient honor guard or drill team? 

[jeders]

Just keep in mind that cadets are barred from flying ES positions and many mission staff positions (command and general staff), so other than operating a couple of radios or parking airplanes, the rest would be sitting on their butts while the Sherriff's Explorers get the find.

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

And how many cadets are over 18? I don't know about your squadron, but in mine we only have one, the vast majority are 17 or younger. Please don't try to confuse the whole meaning of the conversation with an irrelevant semantical twist based on the fact that some cadets choose to remain cadets even after reaching adulthood. You know that we are talking about "kids" here.

Actually I know quite a few. Both I and my fiancee stayed cadets til we were 21. Most of the cadets that I've had contact with have chosen to stay cadets until 21.

As far as calling cadets "kids", I take great offense to that. If I don't let the Red Cross get away with it, I certainly am not gonna let a CAP SM get away with it. To think that all cadets are kids is asinine.

[flyguy06]

Wow. I have been away the last three days up inthe extreme north GA mountains of catoosa doing weapons qual with my guard unit. I have seen the internet before 5 minutes ago. Glad to see my thread is alive and well. 

[DeputyDog]

Oh so wrong. Cadets can do any flying or mission staff assignment, even IC. There is nothing in the SQTRs that states you have to be a senior, just 18.

Cadets cannot be qualified as incident commanders. The highest they can go is PSC. In order to train for OSC (the prerequisite for IC3), you have to be at least 21.

Edited: I just checked CAPR 60-3. It looks like there is another difference between CAPR 60-3 and the SQTRs.

According to CAPR 60-3, you have to be at least 21 years of age to train for PSC.

Other differences are that while the CAPR 60-3 states that you must be 18 years of age to train for LSC and FASC, the SQTRs state that you must be at least 21 years of age.

[floridacyclist]

And how many cadets are over 18? I don't know about your squadron, but in mine we only have one, the vast majority are 17 or younger. Please don't try to confuse the whole meaning of the conversation with an irrelevant semantical twist based on the fact that some cadets choose to remain cadets even after reaching adulthood. You know that we are talking about "kids" here.

Actually I know quite a few. Both I and my fiancee stayed cadets til we were 21. Most of the cadets that I've had contact with have chosen to stay cadets until 21.
[/quote]That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority are still under 18 and playing semantical word games will not change that fact

As far as calling cadets "kids", I take great offense to that. If I don't let the Red Cross get away with it, I certainly am not gonna let a CAP SM get away with it. To think that all cadets are kids is asinine.

You saw the "kids" in quotes to differentiate from the (relatively few) adult cadets. My website even says that I agree with you, so stop playing games and concentrate on the real issue of the fact that minors are not allowed most jobs other than ground-pounding, communications, and MSA. You're clouding the real issue that we're trying to discuss here.

[Short Field]

Edited: I just checked CAPR 60-3. It looks like there is another difference between CAPR 60-3 and the SQTRs.
CAPR 60-3 states that you must be 18 years of age to train for LSC and FASC, the SQTRs state that you must be at least 21 years of age.

The disconnect is between the current Task Guides and the eServices SQTR in the Ops Quals Module.  The current Task Guides referenced in CAPR 60-3 are dated Apr 2005.  The eServices SQTR in the Ops Quals Module are based on the March 2004 Task Guides.

[DeputyDog]

The disconnect is between the current Task Guides and the eServices SQTR in the Ops Quals Module.  The current Task Guides referenced in CAPR 60-3 are dated Apr 2005.  The eServices SQTR in the Ops Quals Module are based on the March 2004 Task Guides.

So which is right? The CAPR 60-3, the SQTRs or the e-Services SQTRs?

[jeders]

As far as calling cadets "kids", I take great offense to that. If I don't let the Red Cross get away with it, I certainly am not gonna let a CAP SM get away with it. To think that all cadets are kids is asinine.

You saw the "kids" in quotes to differentiate from the (relatively few) adult cadets. My website even says that I agree with you, so stop playing games and concentrate on the real issue of the fact that minors are not allowed most jobs other than ground-pounding, communications, and MSA. You're clouding the real issue that we're trying to discuss here.

Actually I'm not just playing semantics. The original topic was whether or not the organization is over-emphasizing ES and dropping much of the emphasis on CP. You eventually responded with saying that it's pointless to emphasize ES for cadets since there's very little that they could do, at least this is how I interpreted it. I then responded that cadet can actually do a lot of ES stuff, especially when you consider the fact that not all cadets are under 18.

As far as saying cadets can be ICs, well it had been awhile since I've read through that section of 60-3 and cede to the point that they can't quite reach that high. As far as putting kids in quotes to say that only some of us are kids, then you better start using that to apply to SM also, just to be fair. I've met a number of senior members who were more childish than 13 year old cadets.

[floridacyclist]

I never said that it's pointless to emphasize ES, only that they (meaning the under-18 cadets) can't participate in flying ES activities. Therefore, if you want cadets to have a spot in ES for more than the few mission staff jobs they can do (MRO,CUL, and MSA) they need the GT and UDF training unless the goal is to practically freeze them out of ES.

[Eclipse]

I never said that it's pointless to emphasize ES, only that they (meaning the under-18 cadets) can't participate in flying ES activities. Therefore, if you want cadets to have a spot in ES for more than the few mission staff jobs they can do (MRO,CUL, and MSA) they need the GT and UDF training unless the goal is to practically freeze them out of ES.

Required or not, GT and UDF are a huge part of the cadet program's appeal.

A udf rating can be achieved for nearly zero cost - the fam & Prep are 2 tasks requiring equipment everyone has at home, and <*BAM*> they are a real-world ES asset.

A school bag, compass and ham sandwich are just as effective for most training environments as a $150 tac vest and case of MRE's.

Its only expensive if you make it expensive, and its only hard to start if you want it to be.

The importance of good people in key base staff jobs should not be down played, either, and although cadets can't actually fly in ES roles until they are 18, they can participate in a lot of the training, and be ready for it at 18.

[Short Field]

[So which is right? The CAPR 60-3, the SQTRs or the e-Services SQTRs?

Ooh, tough question!    Especially since the LSC and FASC SQTRs in the current Mission Base Staff Task Guide (MBSTG) have a Mar 2003 date on the form and not the Apr 2004 date of the current MBSTG. 

The eServices SQTRs punt on both LSC and FASC by saying "Age eligibility check (center current date) instead of stating an age.  We don't have any under 21 members right now so I don't know if eServices automatically checks the personnel record for the age of the person based on the current date.  What age that would be I don't know.

Normally you go with the latest dated publication as being the most current and correct.    CAPR 60-3 is dated 26 May 2004.   The MBSTG is dated 11 Apr 2004.   So CAPR 60-3 should take precedence.  However, CAPR 60-3 para 2-3 states:  "For each specialty rating, standards have been developed to train and qualify members in stages.  The most current versions of the task guides for all specialties are found at the National HQ Operations website.  Prerequisites must be completed prior to initiating training requirements. .... NOTE:  All personnel will conduct training using the standardized National task guides."   That implies that the most current MBSTG takes precedence.   

However, the real answer is I will call National tomorrow and let you know what I find out.   

[Short Field]

Just waiting for National to get back to me.  The guy with the answer is on vacation this week...

[flyguy06]

I never said that it's pointless to emphasize ES, only that they (meaning the under-18 cadets) can't participate in flying ES activities. Therefore, if you want cadets to have a spot in ES for more than the few mission staff jobs they can do (MRO,CUL, and MSA) they need the GT and UDF training unless the goal is to practically freeze them out of ES.

Required or not, GT and UDF are a huge part of the cadet program's appeal.

It doesnt appeal to my cadets

[DeputyDog]

Just waiting for National to get back to me.  The guy with the answer is on vacation this week...

Did you get an answer?

[floridacyclist]

Required or not, GT and UDF are a huge part of the cadet program's appeal.

It doesnt appeal to my cadets

I think most individual programs are self-fulfilling prophecies. You have your open house and everyone comes and gets really excited about all the aviation stuff you do and before long, you have recruited an AE showcase. Guys that like doing it in the woods don't stick around for that. On the other hand, if they show up and the squadron building resembles a Special Forces bunker, you're going to attract the kids that think that's cool.

Bottom line is, it's all good as long as it gives them something to do and effectively competes with the street and TV. Other aspects of the program (or even other programs) are not our enemies, drugs, violence, and hopelessness are.

[flyguy06]

Required or not, GT and UDF are a huge part of the cadet program's appeal.

It doesnt appeal to my cadets

I think most individual programs are self-fulfilling prophecies. You have your open house and everyone comes and gets really excited about all the aviation stuff you do and before long, you have recruited an AE showcase. Guys that like doing it in the woods don't stick around for that. On the other hand, if they show up and the squadron building resembles a Special Forces bunker, you're going to attract the kids that think that's cool.

Bottom line is, it's all good as long as it gives them something to do and effectively competes with the street and TV. Other aspects of the program (or even other programs) are not our enemies, drugs, violence, and hopelessness are.

I agree

[Short Field]

Mr. Desmarais, Sr.,

A question came up about the age requirement for Logistic Section Chiefs and Finance & Accounting Section Chiefs.  The eServices Ops Quals SQTRs are dated Mar 2003 (same as the SQTRs in the MBTG) but only state "age eligibility" not an actual age so that is no help.   CAPR 60-3 states 18 years is the minimum age for LSC and FASC.  The SQTRs in the 11 APR 2004 MBTG states the minimum age is 21 years old.   CAPR 60-3 was published after the SQTRs.   

Which  is correct

Age 21 is the requirements, and we are working to correct these issues with the next revision to 60-3.

JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr.
Deputy Director, Operations
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters