I am not sure if this is the right forum but here it goes.
How many of you air team people would be interested in a ground survival class if it was given on a Saturday in your wing and or group?
I am thinking about bringing this up to my group commander as a class (He told me to start thinking up some classes). It would go over basic land survival.
Things like,
What to do
BASIC first aid like splints, bandaging, ect ect
Shelter building using a poncho or what mother nature provides
Signaling from the ground
Gathering food and water thats safe to eat and drink
Land navigation
What to keep in an emergency pack
Some crashes are survivable and I think it would be a good idea on a class on this. Most aircrews I know don't get very much training or any in this area and in the event that they go down and do hopefully survive they are most likely going to need these skills. A lot of areas of the country are hilly our mountainous and radios don't get out far so you might be on your own for a few days.
I know there is one that went down and the pilot survived and had taken a class like this and said its what saved his life and got him to saftey.
I am on the instructor staff of the CAWG Cadet Survival School scheduled to began in a few days (9-19 AUG, Camp San Luis Obispo, CA.) It will run concurrently with encampment, and is an entirely new type of CAP course! (This is not your grandpa's ES course....) This should be proof of the concept that real life survival skills are something that we can, and should teach in CAP! I urge you to follow our progress and hope that you can implement a survival school in your Wing as well!
Major A.R. Lord
If I were still aircrew, I'd absolutely take it....learned some useful things in CAP & scouts through the years, but a long time ago....and never put together to apply to this specific situation....sounds like a great idea!
Personally, I think CAP should be giving this class not only to our own people, but to the GA community as a whole. Most GA pilots don't realize how long it takes for SAR forces to 1. Realize that they are overdue and missing, and 2. Ramp up a search.
Thanks for the input so far. I have heard of a lot of wings starting survival schools.
I agree, it may be up to like 7 hours before AFRCC gets a hit if I remember right. We have two GT's in this wing that have been known to be on the road an hour after the first call and searching soon after that and the breif ect ect. So lets just say it may be 9 hours before people start to look. It may be the next day till they find out or days if you are out in the hills.
I know most GA pilots are not allways looking for an area to put it down if something happens. I flew with a CAP mission pilot once and he would allways be keeping an eye out for the closest place to put it down incase something happend. He said most pilots loose the engine or something and panic. What you should do is allready know of a close spot that would be good to safley put it down..
This is why glider school is the best thing a power pilot can do.
When you loose an engine in your CAP flight what do you have now? A glider! Its a proven fact that power pilots single or multi that have glider training have a MUCH higher survival rate. MUCH HIGHER.
My father was a glider pilot and said it really helps having the training because if you loose an engine then its no big deal. Its like a stall, you just react and don't panic.
Pilots and MP's remember that please.
Remember, being a GTL I am in charge of the lives of the men and women under me and the people I am looking for.
All you mission pilots are in charge or the lives of the people in your CAP flight. They are trusting you with their lives!
I also thing we need more SAR EX's and classes were air and ground guys work closer together. There are way to many SAR's were air and ground people kind of do their own things. When it the last time you remember an air team supporting a ground team 100%. Say the GT is on a HUGE search grid and they have their CAP flight search different sections for them. When they find something they direct the GT over to them.
We teach out teams ground to air signaling but never go out and do it. You all ar tought air to ground but I have only seen a MP rock his wings ONCE in my 7-8 years in the program.
Why not practice this more to help us if we loose comm and pilots and crew will know what do do if they are the ones on the ground trying to signal. Just because you have a mirror does not mean the pilot above will see you!
Big thanks to all the aircrew members. You are all a huge help to us ground guys. Even just doing a high bird op we all love it when we hear a CAP flight come into the area. If it was not for you guys our job would be very limited! THANKS!!
I would be interested in taking it even as a Ground Pounder
BUT, there is a big difference in the way we should teach this as compared to the military way.
We need to teach these people not only how to help themselves but also help the Rescurers help them.
I agree, thats why I mentioned us teaching them ground to air signals and for GT's to start doing it more so they know what to do and what to look for and know just hor hard it can be to see someone of something on the ground and how easy it can be if you do it right.
yeah, I think more wings have survival schools than ES training...priorities people, priorities :-\
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 06, 2007, 07:30:47 PM
yeah, I think more wings have survival schools than ES training...priorities people, priorities :-\
and for other wings its the other way around :)
I have got to put in a plug for an active MP in the Wisconsin Wing - I HAVE seen him use air to ground signals, not only on SAREXs but also active missions! Consequently, answering the task questions on this at NESA this last month was easy. Thanks to Major Bob Ward - D. Klitzman Memorial Composite Squadron!
Got the ok from the group commander. Everything is a GO!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 12:04:24 PM
Personally, I think CAP should be giving this class not only to our own people, but to the GA community as a whole. Most GA pilots don't realize how long it takes for SAR forces to 1. Realize that they are overdue and missing, and 2. Ramp up a search.
Right on...There is an episode of Survivorman on Discovery Channel where they drop him off in northern Canada with parts of an airplane as a simulated crash site. He made some interesting uses of parts of the plane.
You would think there would be some survival stuff as part of the aircrew curriculum -- after all we make our ground teams learn all of that stuff and they're probably less likely to actually need it than pilots (Our planes crash regularly while I'm not sure I've ever heard of a CAP ground team getting so lost that they had to depend on their suvival skills to make it).
I have never heard of it either but it could happen.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 12:04:24 PM
Personally, I think CAP should be giving this class not only to our own people, but to the GA community as a whole. Most GA pilots don't realize how long it takes for SAR forces to 1. Realize that they are overdue and missing, and 2. Ramp up a search.
Right on...There is an episode of Survivorman on Discovery Channel where they drop him off in northern Canada with parts of an airplane as a simulated crash site. He made some interesting uses of parts of the plane.
That episode is on DSC right now, actually.
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on August 07, 2007, 05:12:50 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 02:54:47 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 12:04:24 PM
Personally, I think CAP should be giving this class not only to our own people, but to the GA community as a whole. Most GA pilots don't realize how long it takes for SAR forces to 1. Realize that they are overdue and missing, and 2. Ramp up a search.
Right on...There is an episode of Survivorman on Discovery Channel where they drop him off in northern Canada with parts of an airplane as a simulated crash site. He made some interesting uses of parts of the plane.
That episode is on DSC right now, actually.
Good episode, all of them are really good, actually.
Things like cutting the tires of your wrecked plane and keeping the rubber ready by a fire. If you hear a plane, put the rubber strips on the fire to make a thick column of black smoke that even a rookie aircrew can spot! Use the residual gas in the tanks to start a fire. Use a CD or a DVD as a signalling mirror.
If you carry a screw driver you can also pull the engine cowl and use your knife to cut off the ignition wires and use them to help make a shelter, same with wiring, ect ect.
You have to we carefull with the wheels and tires, if you don't know what you are doing you can get yourself killed removing them.
Quote from: WoodlandSARman on August 07, 2007, 06:15:41 PM
If you carry a screw driver you can also pull the engine cowl and use your knife to cut off the ignition wires and use them to help make a shelter, same with wiring, ect ect.
You have to we carefull with the wheels and tires, if you don't know what you are doing you can get yourself killed removing them.
How so? GA a/c wheels and tires aren't much different from what's on a car or truck. As long as you let the air out of the tire before you start messing with anything on a survival basis, it's no big deal. Doing non-destructive maintenance requires a little more diligence, but that's what A&P training is all about.
Yep, as long as you take the air out first. On cars people just pull the wheel off then the tire shop or whatever lets the air out to change the tire.
If you don't let the air out before you do anything on an airplane then it might be a bad day for you...
You didn't answer my question.
You stated: You have to we carefull with the wheels and tires, if you don't know what you are doing you can get yourself killed removing them.
I responded: How so? GA a/c wheels and tires aren't much different from what's on a car or truck.
What you have said is unclear regarding the hazards and when they come into play. Simply removing a wheel from a car or aircraft presents little hazard from the inflated tire itself.
In simple terms a aircraft wheel in a two peice wheel sperated straight down the middle held together by bolts.
Its then held onto the hub with a castle nut like how a cars dis brake rotor is held onto the hub.
If the bolts are weakend or cracked and you go to loosen that castle nut the bolts can break seperating the wheel halves with so much force that it goes threw you and anything around including the aircraft. Its more serious of a problem the larger the wheel and tire is. Sometimes the wheel halves go along with the tire exploding at the same time. Wheels and tires Id say are the most dangerous things on an airplane regardless of the aircraft size, GA or not.
Sometimes when airing up the tire someone forgets to check the air pressure at the regulator and the tire goes and that thens to rip them in half along with severe damage to the aircraft but thats besides the point. my father knew a guy that got killed doing this on an F-15 tire.
In other words, you can't just start taking things off an airplane and assume it will not hurt you. Most of the time it can and will.
The batteries in our 172's and 82's ect ect are NASTY. You pick one up and the leads come in contact with your belt buckle and your down for good.
Some people might think they can use one to run a radio or something and its not worth messing with. One of those suckers I bet could start 24 cars and the same time and not even break a sweat.
This is a good example...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6404996554626851642&q=lowrider+competition&total=148&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3 (http://linky)
not a plane, but pretty good...