Cadets and Orientation Flights...Grrrrr...

Started by Stonewall, August 24, 2007, 02:19:03 AM

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Stonewall

[rant]

This is yet another prime example why I get frustrated with the cadets of today.

At the meeting tonight, our orientation flight coordinator was looking for cadets to fly on 1 and 8 September, to burn up money before the end of the fiscal year.

Out of about 18 cadets, only one halfway raised their hand.  The pilot was so frustrated; I felt his pain.

I mean, you're a teenager.  You are given the opportunity to fly in a brand new airplane with fewer than 300 hours with some top notch pilots.  It's freakin' FREE!!!  All you have to do is get there!  I mean, come on.  What gives?

As a cadet, I had almost no interest in flying and aviation, but dern it, I was smart enough to know that flying is in fact, cool.  I used up my 6 flights in less than a year.  And back then, we were charged like $12 a flight for some reason.  I would have ruck marched to the airport if I had to.

I bet those cadets are at home on Saturday "flying" some video game simulator but can't manage to un-arse themselves to actually go fly in a real airplane.

[/rant]
Serving since 1987.

mikeylikey

Why don't we say "CADETS....be at the Airport on 1 September.  Those of you who can not make it, you must be there on 8 September.  I too am sick of Cadets not flying when the opportunity presents itself!

In fact, I would go as far as calling the parent/ guardian and letting them know we have o-flights comming up and we would love to have the kid there.  ALSO.....I love it when a Cadet approaches and says "I never get to fly".  Well if they would get themselves to the airport, they would fly.

OK........bash away.
What's up monkeys?

bosshawk

Guys: you won't get any static from me on your reaction to the cadets.  For about six or eight years, I refused to be qualified as an O Ride Pilot, because I got the same apathy from a bunch of cadets.  I also had the experience of scheduling with a couple who simply stiffed me and didn't show up.  I will waste time on stuff that I want to waste time on: waiting around for teenagers isn't high on my list.

Now, I fly for a Sq where the cadets can't wait to get in the plane and I am back on the list of O Ride pilots.

You never know.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

ELTHunter

One of my cadets actually fell asleep during an O-flight.  Maybe if you made it into a video game....
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

Stonewall

So, from what I've gathered, this is common throughout the whole organization.

I wish I knew the cure.  I bet if we landed a CAP plane in Dili, East Timor we'd get 200 screaming kids wanting to fly.  Of course, they probably wouldn't want to get off the plane afterwards, but hey, at least they'd be motivated to fly.
Serving since 1987.

CASH172

Well I have the option of flying in O-Flights, but what kind of a person that is almost half way to his private and has soloed times before would wanna go on an O-flight.  You can't land or take off.  You can't sit left seat.  You can't log hours.  They're usually less than an hour total.  They can't really teach much out of the syllabus which has already been throughly gone over in flight training.

Eclipse

When asked, a good number of cadets say that they joined CAP "to fly".

In many areas, the lack of O-Rides is cited as a major factor in retention, yet when the opportunity is presented, most can't be bothered.

Your frustration is shared by >MANY<.

Worse yet are the ones who commit to participating, then leave a pilot on the ramp as a "no-show".

This is an endemic problem in the program, in that we allow cadets to pick and choose what they will or won't do, then wonder why the whole thing is dissolving around us.

I like the idea of the "be there" messages.

We should be pushing 99-rides as well.

"That Others May Zoom"

SoCalCAPOfficer

CASH172 the answer to your question is.  "A PILOT".  I have known few pilots that would turn down an opportunity to fly for free.  You may have solo'd, but you still have a lot to learn and a good pilot can always teach you something.
There is much more to flying than landing and taking off.  For instance, do you know how to operate the gps, or the df unit.  How are you on the radios.  These are things you can do from the right seat.  Take advantage of every opportunity if your really serious about becoming a pilot.

I've been a pilot for many years, but I still like to go along for the ride, even if I have to sit in the back seat.    Nuff said.
Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
Commander
Hemet Ryan Sq 59  PCR-CA-458

Eclipse

Quote from: CASH172 on August 24, 2007, 04:24:46 AM
Well I have the option of flying in O-Flights, but what kind of a person that is almost half way to his private and has soloed times before would wanna go on an O-flight.  You can't land or take off.  You can't sit left seat.  You can't log hours.  They're usually less than an hour total.  They can't really teach much out of the syllabus which has already been throughly gone over in flight training.

Easy there, Yeager.

I'm sure if you told the pilot that you have your own ticket, he could find something else to discuss besides the syllabus. 

"That Others May Zoom"

LtCol Hooligan

We run into this as well.  I think it is super common and I cannot figure out why!!  We have taken to listing flight dates on the board each and every meeting.  We have e-mailed all of them.  We have e-mailed a list serve.  We have even gone so far as calling each and every one of them who has not done 2 o'rides yet to get them to fly before the end of the year.  We eventually got 15 flights scheduled, but it was not without work.

I am wondering if this isn't becoming a recent recurring theme for cadets.  We have had several activities we advertised this summer and only mustered a handful for each activity- even though we advertised them heavily.  My thought is that cadets are busy with many different organizations- I never want to tell someone to pass up an organization, but sometimes I think they need to realize they should only do 2-3 organizations and stick to them and do them well.  Parents are putting their teens into 6-7 organizations and it is making it so the teens can only do the bare minimums for each one.  This means they pass up extras like flying and outside meeting activities (the areas that are truly the most fun in CAP).

Back on subject- I did hear one squadron does something cool.  They actually assign cadets and o'ride pilots to each other.  This works because they actually call each other and say hey- do you want to go flying??  FYI- lack of communication kills any excitement you get from an o'ride program.  If the pilot forgets to call the cadet or vice-versa, that cadet/pilot will hesitate to do it again!!
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

Rube11

Almost every Wing is having the same problem...lack of cadet commitment regarding O'rides...and the Wing has to turn back $$$ each year!

Most of this apathy is the result of "how does this make me a better cadet" attitude by most young cadets.  Consequently, they will choose not to fly and stay home or not fulfill their commitment when they sign up and agree to fly.  OBTW:  If they are a "no-show" they should receive a "failure to show" verbal and written counseling that is put in their records.  They have to be held accountable for their actions.

Recommendation; tie the required cadet orientation flights to their promotion.  If they don't fly at certain points of time in their cadet career, they are not promotion eligible to the next higher grade!  Provide waivers only to those cadets who have a fear of flying, etc.

Rube11

jimmydeanno

^Had a cadet who signed up for a KC-135 flight and glider flight, no-show to each.  We had people who were on the "waiting list" as there were limited slots.  Cadet was "suspended" from participating in outside activities with limited slots for a period of at least 30 days with a notation in his record.

He didn't understand why, until we made him go apologize to the cadet that didn't get to go.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

#12
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 24, 2007, 03:10:59 PM
^Had a cadet who signed up for a KC-135 flight and glider flight, no-show to each.  We had people who were on the "waiting list" as there were limited slots.  Cadet was "suspended" from participating in outside activities with limited slots for a period of at least 30 days with a notation in his record.

He didn't understand why, until we made him go apologize to the cadet that didn't get to go.

Ditto - had the same thing on a 130.  Amazing and unacceptable.  The fact that in many cases there is little to no push from home, nor do a lot of parents even >know< what their kids are doing at CAP, doesn't help.

Until we start re-instilling a culture with an expectation of participation and ramifications when none is present, this will continue and get worse.  Seniors, too.

Yes, we're volunteers, but that doesn't mean we should walk around with the "someone else will do it" attitude.

One day we will wake up and find "someone else" was busy that day and CAP, "ain't no mo'".



"That Others May Zoom"

Flying Pig

Well I have the option of flying in O-Flights, but what kind of a person that is almost half way to his private and has soloed times before would wanna go on an O-flight.  You can't land or take off.  You can't sit left seat.  You can't log hours.  They're usually less than an hour total.  They can't really teach much out of the syllabus which has already been throughly gone over in flight training.

Gosh....I guess you could consider the opportunity to interact with anexperienced pilot.  I am a Commercial -Instrument rated pilot and never pass up an opportunity to interact with our unit pilots.

afgeo4

Why not make O-Flights mandatory for promotion to certain grades? Say... Wright Brothers would require 5 O-Flights, powered, glider or combination of both. That way our cadet NCOs have a basics of understanding flight and are able to teach the youngsters about it. Maybe make it mandatory for a cadet to serve as an O-Flight assistant coordinator to get Mitchell?

Aviation is a mandatory part of our cadet progression already. Why not make it consistant and substantial?
GEORGE LURYE

fyrfitrmedic

 At times I've seen a combination of factors; the no-show cadets as the result of parents deciding that the o-flight day is the day to go [fill in the blank]... and neither cadets or parents bother to inform anyone of their "change of plans".
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

jimmydeanno

While that sounds great on paper, I don't think it would work out practically.

1) The cadet's O-Flights are more often than not dictated by the schedule of the O-Flight pilot that "happens" to have some free time to give to CAP.

2) The O'Flights should be spread out over the course of their "career."

3) The cadet may be deathly afraid of flying, but may like aerospace.  O' Flights are optional.

4) The cadet has a disability that prohibits them from a) getting in the plane b) flying.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Quoting exceptions is not the way to establish the rule.

I >GUARANTEE< if O-Rides were required for promotion cadets would participate and parents would be making sure they were there.

A very good idea.

"That Others May Zoom"

genejackson

You will have a very hard time making O rides mandatory towards any promotions.   Wings only have so many aircraft and far more cadets than planes or pilots.  In my Group, we've had a very hard time getting cadets and pilots to meet up and complete the O rides.  There are obviously a lot of factors as to why but making O rides mandatory before promotions won't work.   

One of my more successful programs has been to assign each new cadet a mentor and that person takes responsibility to ensure the cadet is dressed correctly, has the correct paperwork done, knows when to be where, etc.   A senior cadet mentoring new cadets, a senior "seasoned" member for new senior members.   And that senior cadet takes responsibility to ensure his junior member gets hooked up with a pilot and plane.   This may not be the perfect answer but has sure increased our attendance and response rate towards completing O rides.
Gene Jackson
COL (R) US Army
Danville VA

Stonewall

IN DCWG we did "O-Flight Weekends".  More than just o-flights, we made it a bar-b-q/model rocketry/AE weekend.  So after the weekend, cadets would earn their model rocketry badge, learn some AE stuff from a couple well-qualified celebrity types and get at least 1 or 2 O-flgiths.  And don't forget the food, probably the biggest attraction.
Serving since 1987.

Major Carrales

Boy, I must have a unique problem...kids that want to fly but the nearest O-pilots was 200 miles away.  Cancelled out three times on us due ot weather and other factors.

One of our goals for this year was to have an O-PILOT in house, we will have two at teh end of the month...now, to beg for an aircraft.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

CASH172

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 24, 2007, 04:46:25 AM
CASH172 the answer to your question is.  "A PILOT".  I have known few pilots that would turn down an opportunity to fly for free.  You may have solo'd, but you still have a lot to learn and a good pilot can always teach you something.
There is much more to flying than landing and taking off.  For instance, do you know how to operate the gps, or the df unit.  How are you on the radios.  These are things you can do from the right seat.  Take advantage of every opportunity if your really serious about becoming a pilot.

I've been a pilot for many years, but I still like to go along for the ride, even if I have to sit in the back seat.    Nuff said.

I am pretty proficient in the Apollo GPSs we use.  I have used the DFer in a many at some times, know the basics, just some of the advanced procedures are something I could learn if I go for my observer rating when I reach 18.  My radio work is amazing.  With the amount of flight time I have gotten from CAP and the good chance that I'm not gonna leave CAP suddenly, I'd rather give any O-flight slots to some other cadet.  

Only problem is when cadets don't wanna fly, then I'll consider flying to give me some fun.  

airdad

Just my $.02.  I wear many hats-group deputy cc, ops officer AND o pilot.
Every month at commanders call, I tell the commanders that I can arrange o flights with minimum notice-give me a date and the number of cadets and I guarantee them a pilot (I am lucky enough to have o pilots that are free weekdays as well as weekends).  Our problem is getting cadets to the airports nearest our group.  Bottom line is that we've only flown about 20% of our cadets this past year, and I consider that shameful.
As far as making o flights mandatory for promotion, my wife, a wise squadron commander reminded me that cadets take an oath to participate in unit activities, and participation in unit activities IS a requirement for promotion.  Even if a cadet is afraid to fly, he or she can still come to the airport and participate; perhaps the proximity to the airplane will help him/her to overcome their fear. 
Let's keep 'em flying
Len Schindler, Lt Col, CAP
Northeast Region/IGT

RiverAux

Haven't heard there is a problem getting cadets to fly.  The issues I've seen is that its just a pain to organize them.  Unless you're only going to fly 1 sortie and only have to arrange to have those cadets meet the pilot at the right time, you get into a situation where you have to have another senior sit around and supervise the waiting cadets while the others are flying.

I know our wing used up all our funds, but I think that is probably because some units were doing a lot of flying while others weren't doing much at all. Not sure why the ones that weren't flying weren't doing it. 

Eclipse

Quote from: CASH172 on August 24, 2007, 04:22:46 PM
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 24, 2007, 04:46:25 AM
CASH172 the answer to your question is.  "A PILOT".  I have known few pilots that would turn down an opportunity to fly for free.  You may have solo'd, but you still have a lot to learn and a good pilot can always teach you something.
There is much more to flying than landing and taking off.  For instance, do you know how to operate the gps, or the df unit.  How are you on the radios.  These are things you can do from the right seat.  Take advantage of every opportunity if your really serious about becoming a pilot.

I've been a pilot for many years, but I still like to go along for the ride, even if I have to sit in the back seat.    Nuff said.

I am pretty proficient in the Apollo GPSs we use.  I have used the DFer in a many at some times, know the basics, just some of the advanced procedures are something I could learn if I go for my observer rating when I reach 18.  My radio work is amazing.  With the amount of flight time I have gotten from CAP and the good chance that I'm not gonna leave CAP suddenly, I'd rather give any O-flight slots to some other cadet. 

Only problem is when cadets don't wanna fly, then I'll consider flying to give me some fun. 
Remember Wings are also judged based on the 99 rides they do as well.  If yo have the chance, take the ride.

"That Others May Zoom"

SJFedor

We found ways, too.

We brought in just about every plane in the Wing during the Summer encampment, and ran o-flights every moment that the encampment staff would let us have cadets. I believe we ended up doing ~130 o-flights that week.

I could understand tying o-flights to promotions, but if you require them, is it fair to hold the cadet back that's at the unit that doesn't see an airplane much, and no one is proactive in promoting flying?

Our group has an o-flight project officer who arranges the o-flights with the different units. Each unit has a weekend on a rotating schedule. If they choose not to use it, we go to the next unit that wants to fly. Some units fly a lot, others, not so much. 

Quote from: CASH172 on August 24, 2007, 04:22:46 PM
I am pretty proficient in the Apollo GPSs we use.  I have used the DFer in a many at some times, know the basics, just some of the advanced procedures are something I could learn if I go for my observer rating when I reach 18.  My radio work is amazing.  With the amount of flight time I have gotten from CAP and the good chance that I'm not gonna leave CAP suddenly, I'd rather give any O-flight slots to some other cadet.  

Only problem is when cadets don't wanna fly, then I'll consider flying to give me some fun.  

Proficiency in the Apollo GPS is more then using the direct to button, that's something I've found that many pilots in CAP don't understand. Can you bring up the SAR map? Do you know how to build a flight plan? Activate approaches in the GX50 and 60 model? Change the sectional in use for gridding the SAR map?

Find something to do. I've got one cadet in my unit who got his ticket on his 17th birthday and still had 4 o-flights left. I took him up, and we kinda tracked along the syllabus, except that, instead of normal flight maneuvers, I put him under the hood and did some normal instrument flight maneuvers. There's no FAR that says you need to be in the left seat to log the time, only the sole manipulator of the controls. That means I can't log the time when he's manipulating the controls, UNLESS i'm serving as a safety pilot. So he got some into to instruments, I introduced him to approaches and whatnot, how to read the approach plates, etc. Of course, yes, I had to fly the plane during critical phases of flight, but there's still a lot that can be learned.

Heck, if you're into the SAR thing and want to be an MO or MP later in life, have the instructor put out a practice beacon. Practice wing nulls, find the beacon without the DF, learn how to set up the GPS to fly a creeping line search.

Unless you're an ATP with thousands of hours, which you don't sound like you are, you can learn something from being in that cockpit. All you need to do is communicate with the pilot in advance and say "Hey, I have some experience, I know this, can we do something advanced?" 99% of O-pilots I know would be thrilled to do something besides explaining the very basics, as we do with every cadet that gets in the plane. Honestly, it's very disheartening to hear the attitude you have that you know the basics, so why should I bother? Because every moment you spend in an aircraft, you can learn something if you choose to use it constructively. And THAT is what makes better pilots, the willingness to learn instead of being complacent in where you are and what you know.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

CASH172

Quote from: SJFedor on August 25, 2007, 12:34:54 AM
There's no FAR that says you need to be in the left seat to log the time, only the sole manipulator of the controls. That means I can't log the time when he's manipulating the controls, UNLESS i'm serving as a safety pilot. So he got some into to instruments, I introduced him to approaches and whatnot, how to read the approach plates, etc.

It was to my understanding that cadets couldn't log the time on their O-flights. 

SJFedor

Per regulation:

QuoteThe pilot of powered aircraft will occupy the left front seat. The pilot of
glider aircraft will occupy the rear seat, proficiency permitting (or the left
seat of gliders that have side-by-side seating).
Pilots will not perform extreme maneuvers, aerobatic maneuvers, spins or
emergency procedures (unless, of course, there's an emergency).
Cadets are encouraged to handle the flight controls except during the
critical phases of the flight (like take-off and landing or in an emergency).

Nothing anywhere says that you can't log the time you're at the controls, however, you need a certificate that allows you to log pilot in command time. Private or better. If you just have a current student certificate with solo, too bad, cuz, you're not soloing. But as the sole manipulator of the controls, when you have a pilots license, current medical, and are current, you may log the time. Since it prohibits you flying during critical phases of flight, you don't get to do, and log, landings, but oh well, time is time.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

flyguy06

I think it stems from the type of person we are recruting as a cadet. Most cadets in my wing and from reading this board and others are more intereste din going to the woods, doing serach and rescue or EMT type of things. Because they have those interests, they usually arent interested in flying. Its just the opposite. People that are interested in flying and aviation arent interested in going to the woods. So i would assume its vice versa.

When I recruit cadets, I recruit youths that have a strong interest in science, aerospace or aviation or engineering. So I know they will be into flying from the get go.

SJFedor

When I do manage to get those "ES" cadets into the air for an o-flight, I always try to add a little bit of Air SAR methodology to the syllabus. Sometimes I'll throw a practice beacon out, and while demonstrating different load factors on the aircraft at different angles of turn (syllabus 7), I'll show them how we can find an ELT just by using a map and wing nulls. Or, I have them give me the lat/long of their school or a building they know, and show them how we can plug it into the GPS and be on station rather quickly. Sometimes I'll hide a target in an area we'll be flying, and just have them casually keep their eyes open to see if they can find it. Just to show that it's not all cake and cookies doing the work in the air, either. Usually, once I tie in a little ES, those cadets will take enough of an interest to get up and fly again.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)