CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Momster on April 16, 2018, 01:36:19 AM

Title: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Momster on April 16, 2018, 01:36:19 AM
Here is what is in the regulations:

6.4.5.5. Dress Boots. Plain black, commercial design without ornamentation such as
buckles, bows or straps; heels of a height suitable to the individual but no higher than 2 ½ inches
(measured from inside sole of the boot to end of heel lift). Wear of boots with skirt or slacks authorized
however, if worn with skirt, boots must be removed and pumps or oxfords must be worn while in
workplace. Highly polished, high gloss or patent leather is allowed.

I'd like to be more certain about height of the upper of the boot.  This reg is non-specific enough that, with proper heel height, one could potentially wear thigh-high pull ons with a skirt.  Not that I want to.  Does anyone have any more specifics and maybe pictures of what is actually acceptable?

Thank you all
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: arajca on April 16, 2018, 01:45:12 AM
The way the reg is written, it appears to be more to allow boots with a skirt to be worn to and from work (CAP meeting/activity) due to weather (rain, snow, hail, etc) rather than worn during work. So, even in you did wear thigh-high boots, when you got to the meeting, you'd need to change into pumps of oxfords for the meeting.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:34:55 AM
Standard combat-style black boots.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Momster on April 16, 2018, 04:08:30 AM
Keep those answers coming!  Neither of those particularly satisfies me, though I am willing to be wrong about this.  The allowed highly polished, high gloss, or patent leather don't sound like any combat boots I'm aware of (though having been in no branch of the service but the Forest Service, I admit my combat boot knowledge is much more limited than my caulk boot knowledge) and with no reference to allowances for weather in the reg, I'm skeptical about that answer too, but less so.  But, I have broad shoulders and can totally bear being wrong. 8)
Anyone else?  More thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: arajca on April 16, 2018, 04:13:15 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:34:55 AM
Standard combat-style black boots.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Disagree. The paragraph deals with dress boots (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=dress+boots&qpvt=Dress+boots&FORM=IGRE), which are not combat boots.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: J2H on April 16, 2018, 04:36:50 AM
Dress boots I assume would be "fancy" combat boots... ie Galls Parade boot-style... patent leather or hi-gloss... they are still combat boots, but pretty.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: SarDragon on April 16, 2018, 06:01:38 AM
Nope. We're talking ladies dress boots, suitable for wear with nice civilian clothes, too.

Sadly, my Google-foo is weak tonight, and I haven't found any pics of suitable boots. Everything I saw was too high (heel), too tall, or too fancy.

Mid-calf length is what I have seen worn in the past, but very infrequently.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on April 16, 2018, 06:21:05 AM
Typically combat boots have an 8" rise up on your leg, so about mid-calf to lower calf depending on your height. Some boots I would recommend are bates, specifically the kind vanguard sells I've had mine for 2 1/2 years and I've abused them, still have yet to see a little bit of them falling apart. I don't recommend buying them from vanguard however, you can usually find them other places for cheaper, I got mine at a sportsmans warehouse for like $60
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: J2H on April 16, 2018, 06:37:34 AM
There is also a section for men's dress boots... to me, dress boots are fancy mil boots
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: SarDragon on April 16, 2018, 09:11:52 AM
This is a dress boot suitable for CAP wear..

(https://workingperson.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/400x400/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_43156.jpg)
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 01:07:06 PM
Those are cowboy boots.

I have to imagine the intent was something like this:

(https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-zfvgw8/yanc4o/products/98/images/26006/1500_10_26388__71015.1430863725.600.600.jpg)

With the idea being that a member could wear their clean and serviceable BDU boots with their blues.

They don't have to be Corfam-shiny as that's not a requirement for dress shoes, either.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: PHall on April 16, 2018, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 01:07:06 PM
Those are cowboy boots.

I have to imagine the intent was something like this:

(https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-zfvgw8/yanc4o/products/98/images/26006/1500_10_26388__71015.1430863725.600.600.jpg)

With the idea being that a member could wear their clean and serviceable BDU boots with their blues.

They don't have to be Corfam-shiny as that's not a requirement for dress shoes, either.

You're not even close. Shiny Combat Boots are still Combat Boots. They are NOT Dress Boots.
Dress Boots are not worn with BDU's. They're worn with the Service and Service Dress uniforms.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Geber on April 16, 2018, 01:42:44 PM
Quote6.4.2.4. Dress Boots. Can be worn (optional) with the service dress and services uniforms.
Wear boots with skirt or slacks; however, if worn with skirt, remove boots and wear pumps, slip-on
shoes, or low quarters while in the work place. Heels will be of a height suitable to the individual but no
higher than 2 ½ inches (measured from the inside sole of the boot to the end of the heel lift). The tip of
the heel can't be less than ½ inch in diameter or larger than the body of the boot. Faddish styles will not
be worn (e.g. extreme toes, pointed or squared, or extreme heel shapes). They will be plain, clean and
serviceable, and without ornamentation such as buckles, bows or straps. The material will be smooth,
scotch-grained leather or a manmade material. They may be high-gloss or patent finish.

Clearly a combat boot will not have a heel just over 1/2 inch diameter.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
As much as I hate to do it, referring to the AFI would indicate "someone" embellished
the definition included in 39-1 for "reasons".

AFI-36-2903, Page 69
"Heels of a height suitable to the individual but no higher than 2 1/2 inches (measured from inside sole of
the boot to end of heel lift). Wear boots with skirt or slacks; however, if worn with skirt, remove boots and
wear pumps or oxfords while in work place. Plain, black, commercial design without ornamentation such as
buckles, bows, or straps. High gloss or patent finish optional"


No idea why the verbiage about the diameter of the heel is necessary or even relevent, since as stated above,
nothing in a combat-style boot, or even a conservative pump is going to have a 1/2" diameter heel.

When you read the male verbiage in both 39-1 and 2903, its clear and obvious the intention was to allow
for combat-style boots to be worn with blues.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:26:37 PM
When you search "female dress boot" on AAFES, this is the only thing reasonable that comes up:

https://www.shopmyexchange.com/calvin-klein-devlin-box-leather-boots/8628728
(https://www.zappos.com/images/z/4/1/2/3/0/0/4123003-p-2x.jpg)
(Photo of same boot from Zappos)


Which would be appropriate for wear with female blues, but would have to be changed
is a skirt is worn.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Geber on April 16, 2018, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
As much as I hate to do it, referring to the AFI would indicate "someone" embellished
the definition included in 39-1 for "reasons".

.
.
.

No idea why the verbiage about the diameter of the heel is necessary or even relevent, since as stated above,
nothing in a combat-style boot, or even a conservative pump is going to have a 1/2" diameter heel.

When you read the male verbiage in both 39-1 and 2903, its clear and obvious the intention was to allow
for combat-style boots to be worn with blues.

The AFI has the passage about 1/2 inch heels, under a different paragraph number.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:43:16 PM
I see it.  The I have no idea what the actual expectation here is.

Nothing with a 1/2-inch diameter heel in a boot if going to look appropriate with blues.

Maybe something like this?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5EIAAOSwZrtZuwgD/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: PHall on April 16, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:43:16 PM
I see it.  The I have no idea what the actual expectation here is.

Nothing with a 1/2-inch diameter heel in a boot if going to look appropriate with blues.

Maybe something like this?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5EIAAOSwZrtZuwgD/s-l500.jpg)

As long as the heel does not exceed 2-1/2 inches in height they're good to go.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Momster on April 16, 2018, 08:54:37 PM

Thank you all for your posts and pics.  I appreciate the help and clarification.  If nothing else, I now know that there are dress combat boots!  Had no idea. :)
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: SarDragon on April 16, 2018, 11:45:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 16, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
No idea why the verbiage about the diameter of the heel is necessary or even relevent, since as stated above,
nothing in a combat-style boot, or even a conservative pump is going to have a 1/2" diameter heel.

No spike heels.
Title: Re: Female dress boot regs
Post by: Shuman 14 on April 17, 2018, 11:46:00 PM
QuoteNope. We're talking ladies dress boots, suitable for wear with nice civilian clothes, too.

We do allow it in the Army too. I knew a Female First sergeant that wore them from the car, to the office, changed into pumps and when she left for the day, reversed the process.

Closest I could find were these:

(https://cdnc.lystit.com/photos/2012/09/11/sam-edelman-black-loren-flat-knee-high-boots-product-1-4683568-359191646.jpeg)