Army badges on CAP uniforms

[DNall]

The Army markmanship badges are not allowed on the Air Force uniform because the Air Force has the Small Arms Expert Markmanship Ribbon.
The ribbon replaces the markmanship badge only if you shot expert, otherwise you're SOL.
And the only authorised attachment is a 3/16" bronze star if you have shot expert on more then one weapon.

And this does not mean that if you served in the Army that you can wear the Air Force ribbon on your CAP uniform.
You gotta serve in one of the branches of the Air Force (Active, Guard, Reserve) to be able to wear the ribbon.

In short, you have to have a DD214 or other written order awarding you the ribbon before you can wear it on your CAP uniform.

This is true. The issue is Army personnel moving over to AF would be awarded the AF ribbon to replace the badges. Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa. CAP is stuck in the middle cause the AF will not award a ribbon to non-AF personnel based on previous other service accomplishments.

The notorious table in 39-1 is based off a much older version of the AF reg. The AF has since tightened up the standards for wear of those items. The table it out-dated and should be brought into line with the current AF reg. If that happens then CIB, CAB, etc would go away in CAP - sorry folks.

Another problem is that people don't make any effort to change the rules. There might be a few things that the Air Force might agree on for our members if only they were asked. So, who's actually asked?

True. But, the bigger issue I see is people that don't have the discipline to just follow the rules as written, including commander's (in this case AF) intent. If they'd do that first, then we might be able to have a discussion about changing things for the better. And in doing that, they'd drastically improve a lot of problems in our org and our relationship w/ our parent service.

[mikeylikey]

I hate to be the one to say it, but CAP is not the AF (like many here always point out to me).  Do we really need to follow AF rules here?  Wouldn't it be easier to say "AD/Guard/Reserve members on AD/ Reserve or Guard Duty and retired/ discharged members may wear any and all Ribbons, and badges earned through any and all uniformed service to the United States".

CAP is CAP.......CAP is NOT the USAF. 

Especially on the corporate uniforms, wear everything earned. 

Heck.......the AF wants our AF-style to be drastically different than the AF uniforms, this would do it!!!!! 

[DNall]

I hate to be the one to say it, but CAP is not the AF...

It really has ZERO to do with that in any way shape or form.

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel. That's a simple & easily applied standard. It should be a complement that they hold us to their standard, that they consider it their uniform (rather than that of an independent org), and should in general demonstrate that they care.

The corporate-style uniform is another issue all together. The alternative "uniforms" were originally standard business attire (not uniforms) with an added nametag or two. The original intent was not ever supposed to be a full-up alternative to AF-style uniforms. It has, however, grown into that in the last 10 years.

To my knowledge, the AF has never expressed any approval or disapproval of having actual corporate-style uniforms versus professional business attire. However they have upheld their interpretation of law regarding wear of military devices on non-military controlled uniforms (versus distinctively civilian attire). They have not as far as I know been overly forceful about the position. Rather it has been CAP that put this out.

Basically, CAP didn't like the rules the AF forced them to live under, so they found a loop-hole to do their own thing, and then did it in a way to piss off the AF the least. That's perfectly in character for CAP & the definitive problem that remains in our relationship with the AF (far beyond uniform issues). You know barracks lawyering is a bad thing. That's what this is on a grand scale.

[mikeylikey]

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel.

But they do not, or it would be a chapter in the AF uniform reg.  Or our 39-1 would reflect AF guidance, but it does not.  The last published copy was 2005, which included the wear of badges and insignia on the AF-style that the AF does not even allow.  So the whole "follow AF guidelines found in their regs" is total crap.  There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member.   

[RiverAux]

Even if we don't follow the AF way, we do get AF approval to be at odds with their way of doing things....

[Hawk200]

There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member. 

Not just the jackets, but other uniforms, too. "Sister" service badges are not permitted on the ABU. Not certain about flightsuits, or med and food service whites, but I imagine it carries over. There are compatible insignia available for those uniforms for other branch badges, but they aren't permitted. An example of the Air Force wanting to play joint ops, just don't want to allow anything from other services.

Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa.

Is there a message on this? I know the Marine Corps has such a policy, but I didn't know the Air Force had enacted one.

[heliodoc]

You know I had a pretty good life in the USAR ARNG Aviation program when the Reserve system went to "off site " agreement in'93-'95 era

I got my master Aircrew member badge after the 17 year mark and retired after 21 years.

Got back into CAP after a 22 yr hiatus after being a cadet in former life..

You know what, after reading all the posts, what is the deal with all you bling meisters???

CAP uni is a CAP uni......................"governed" by the USAF or at least it is supposed to be only to to be end run by CAP blingmeisters.  What in tarnation is the deal??

I got a DD 214, too.  But I really got to face reality and leave it off my CAP uniform.  I served my country, and tell people of my service only when someone is interested. If I HAVE to put my Aircrew badge on my CAP uni, then I will..  I served in Army Aviation Loud and Proud.  Got all the Army tshirts and combat boots that I wanted.

Guess what?? Doesn't make me more or less of a CAP member if I leave my Army bling off!!!!!!

[NIN]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

[DNall]

It is an AF uniform, controlled completely by the AF (and federal law). They demand that it be worn in accordance with the same rules they apply to their personnel.

But they do not, or it would be a chapter in the AF uniform reg.  Or our 39-1 would reflect AF guidance, but it does not.  The last published copy was 2005, which included the wear of badges and insignia on the AF-style that the AF does not even allow.  So the whole "follow AF guidelines found in their regs" is total crap.  There are Army badges that can be worn on the AF Service Jacket as a CAP member, that can not be worn on the AF Service Jacket as an AF member.   

That would make more sense, but when have you known things in the military, especially regulations, to make sense.

They do have legal authority over the uniform and they do regulate it through their uniform board & air staff approval/disapproval & directed actions on CAP changes to our BDUs/Blues.

Our 39-1 is very obviously out of date by a long time now. The table was not corrected (the issue wasn't raised at the time) when the last 39-1 came out. It is however out of synch with the current AF reg & should be corrected to reflect AF guidance. That's just a lack of attention to detail on CAP's part - and frankly the AF too, but I'm a little more understanding of it being low on their radar.

It's not a matter of follow AF guidance found in their regs just because. That's the AF's stated policy regarding uniforms (as opposed to non-uniform issues). However, I would also draw your attention to some other items of policy. The non-discrimination type stuff for instance. We are legally bound to comply with AF regs on that, regardless of CAP regs. That's stated repeated in NHQ policy guidance. Just an example.

Same w/ CAB/CIB replaced by AF Combat Action Ribbon (same deal if Army went Navy/Marine/CG), and vice versa.

Is there a message on this? I know the Marine Corps has such a policy, but I didn't know the Air Force had enacted one.

I couldn't quote you the policy. The CAR is new to the AF, and my understanding from some folks that should know is that it's following the same Marine vs Army policy. I don't know of cases where it's been applied to folks coming over from Army to AF - mainly cause AF is not accepting prior-service virtually at all right now. But, I do know of cases where AF personnel were awarded CAB by the Army then had the AF turn it into CAR.

[SAR-EMT1]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

Awesome

[tkelley004]

The Combat Action Badge (CAB) and Combat Action Medal (CAM) are not equal, it is "eaiser" to get the CAB than the medal. I know of cases were the Army has awared the CAB to an Airman, but they were denied the CAM. The CAB then becomes a nice thing to put on your wall, but it is not authorized to be worn on the Air Force Uniform

CAB:

III. AWARD ELIGIBILITY: The Combat Action Badge (CAB) may be awarded by any commander delegated authority by the Secretary of the Army during wartime or the CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command and will be announced in permanent orders.

(1) The requirements for award of the CAB are Branch and MOS immaterial. Assignment to a Combat Arms unit or a unit organized to conduct close or offensive combat operations, or performing offensive combat operations is not required to qualify for the CAB. However, it is not intended to award all soldiers who serve in a combat zone or imminent danger area.

(2) Specific Eligibility Requirements:

a. May be awarded to any soldier.

b. Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.

c. Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.

d. Soldier must not be assigned/attached to a unit that would qualify the soldier for the CIB/CMB a Combat Action Badge is not Equal to the Combat

>>>>>so if at a forward base, the bad guy lob a few mortars at the base, you take cover, man your post or whatever.... CAB. (this is not ment to lessen the service of any one, you can die in a war zone doing anything... or nothing.....) The Army acknowledges this with the CAB

Now the AFCAM
Criteria:

Combat conditions defined:
For the purposes of this award, the combat conditions are met when:
-- Individual(s) deliberately go outside the defended perimeter to conduct official duties - either ground or air, and
-- Come under enemy attack by lethal weapons while performing those duties, and
-- Are at risk of grave danger

Or

-- Individual(s) are defending the base (on the defended perimeter), and
-- Come under fire and engage the enemy with direct and lethal fire, and
-- Are at risk of grave danger; also meet the intent of combat conditions for the award

Additionally, personnel in ground operations who actively engage the enemy with direct and lethal fire may qualify even if no direct fire is taken--as long as there was risk of grave danger and other criteria are met. Central to the integrity of this combat recognition is the adherence to these combat conditions prerequisites.

Criteria - ground:
-- Individual must be in combat conditions as defined in combat conditions defined above. Combat must take place in a combat zone defined as a geographic area designated by the president via executive order or a qualified hazardous duty area in which a member is receiving Imminent Danger Pay or Hostile Fire Pay. Individual must be physically present, at risk of grave danger and performing in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement
-- Personnel outside the defended perimeter must be fired upon by the enemy with lethal weapons; returning fire is situation dependent and not necessarily a precondition of award. Risk of grave danger to the individual must be detailed in the award submission
-- Encampments, compounds and protected areas (inside the defended perimeter) will normally not qualify as venues for this award unless the individual is serving in a defensive capacity, taking fire and engaging the enemy. Augmenting a defensive fighting position and taking fire, regardless official duties, would also qualify as combat action if all other criteria were met. Receiving mortars, responding to alarm condition, reporting to bunkers, do not independently constitute combat action for the purpose of this award. However, should combat conditions arise out of such events then exceptions to policy with full justification can be submitted
-- Personnel eligible for the award of the Purple Heart do not automatically qualify for the combat action medal. Purple Heart recipients must apply for the AFCAM through the appropriate award channels.

Criteria - air:
-- Individual must be flying as authorized aircrew members on aeronautical orders in direct support of a combat zone and in combat as define in combat conditions. Combat must take place in a combat zone defined as a geographic area designated by the president via executive order or a qualified hazardous duty area in which a member is receiving Imminent Danger Pay or Hostile Fire Pay. Individual must be physically present, at risk of grave danger and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement
-- Individual must be performing assigned duties. Traveling passengers, including aircrew manifested as passengers, on an aircraft are not eligible based solely on their presence if the aircraft were to come under fire.

See the difference.....

[DNall]

^ roger, but an Army commander isn't going to initiate for award of an AF CAM or Navy/MC CAR on an attached airman/sailor/marine. They are going to award a CAB, and let the sister service sort it out. It'd be a function of the citation to meet the reqs. Likewise, if a soldier with CAB were to come over to the AF, it'd be up to him to justify award of CAM based on his past CAB citation.

Point being, CAB should not be authorized on CAP uniforms cause it specifically is not auth on AF uniforms. Likewise, CIB is no longer auth on AF uniforms under the newer reg, so should be removed from the table in 39-1. And, CAP members cannot gain an AF ribbon to take the place of a past sister service award (mostly marksman or combat service badges), because they are not physically in the AF. So, suck it up & charlie mike. You prob got plenty other cool guy crap to let people know you once did it for real.

[hatentx]

I can see your point on allowing the CAB and such on the uniform being that is it not in AF Regs.  However there are things that are different between the AF uniform and the CAP uniform.  Things like the flag would be one just to start out with.  I know I have seen other threads on this and am not trying to start this discussion, just making a point. 

CAP has more prior service members than the AF does and I think in the regulations this should be taking into account.  Again as I have said before I get to wear all my bells and whistles other than a Combat Patch which I can see that side of things.  I would hate to put that 7 in bright yellow patch on anyways.  But when it comes to skill badges and such I honestly think there should be some changes.  Regardless of the service you are coming from you should be allowed to wear such badges and awards. 

I do agree that if you were to be wearing the awards and they not be authorized then you should be himmed up for it but other than that I wouldn't mind seeing these changes in the regulations.  I know it isnt a huge thing for me being I get to wear all my junk but I guess it just seems odd to me as a Army guy who sees AF and other service badges on a daily basis why it would be an issue to go the other way around.  I see prior AF guys spray painting their badges black so they can be warn on the ACUs

[billford1]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

[COL Land]

I wear my Army bling (well, my aircrew wings) more because it shows a little "flying cred" in the face of the flying club-types.    Since I don't have any other Army badges (bullwinkle, parachute, etc), and just a GTL badge, it balances things a little.





Plus, you know, at least my uniform looks more correct now (for years I eshewed the subdued sew-on badge in favor of the old "white on OD" which at least looked "mostly correct."  I don't like to mix-n-match)

What?  No "Master Blaster" wings in ultra-marine? 

[mikeylikey]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

AGREED!  CAP is CAP, CAP is not USAF.  Every military badge, ribbon and device should be allowed on CAP Uniforms.  PERIOD.  We already make concessions on the AF-style as to not be confused with the AF.  Why can't we let our members show their achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments??  Poor form not to allow every and anything on the uniforms. 

[DNall]

^ cause WE don't have any control over that uniform. WE are granted permission by the AF to wear their uniform in the way they direct, which is in conformity to THEIR rules. The AF defines what can or cannot be worn on that set of uniforms, and CAP has nothing to say about it at any level of the organization at any time for any reason, PERIOD.

Uniforms are like DnC. It's not really important to how you accomplish the mission. It's the discipline & conformity on those little things that form the foundation for those behaviors on the big things that do matter.

[mikeylikey]

^ But we are wearing things (badges) that are not allowed on the AF uniform now, already.  So why hasn't the AF told us to remove them?  Unless AF specifically says here is the list of badges you can wear, then lets not (NOT) remove what we already have in the current 39-1, just to fall in line with the AF.  It has been years since the AF removed certain badges from the Blues, wouldn't you think if it was such a big deal, we would have had an ICL telling us to remove the badges as well??

[winterg]

I didn't know that the EIB wasn't allowed by the AF.  I guess it's kinda like an occupational badge much like the AF has which aren't allowed by other services.

I went from USAF to Army and I wore my Crew Chief occupational badge and enlisted crew wings on my BDU's and dress uniform.  No probs.

[MIKE]

Mikey, if this annoys you... You'd better not join the gold side of the Coast Guard...  They are really anal about other services badges.