State Adjutant General Awards KSWG a Ribbon

[RickFranz]

Even if I never get to wear the ribbon I'm pleased at least for having received the Certificate from the Kansas State National Guard that went with the ribbon. Roger and Aubrey Eaton still haven't got theirs. They were on a team that went right out by where the sight was.

There was a mess up in the paperwork...  I think the rest  of them will be awarded at the Wing Conference on the 31 of May.

I also think that it was really nice that the TAG gave us the Certificates and Ribbons.

[Hawk200]

It should be rewritten to allow any ribbon/medal awarded by the RM to a member of CAP at anytime to be worn.  I still have reservations about state awards.

Why? Many state awards cover things that Federal awards don't, or else the Federal awards are too generalized for. There are some states where it's harder and takes longer to get a state dec than it would a more generic Federal award.

There are a few state awards I don't care for, but for the most part they are very valid decorations.

[mikeylikey]

^ That is a very valid reason why CAP members should be allowed to wear any and all STATE, FEDERAL Awards.  CAP is NOT the USAF (as pointed out here countless times) so why are we following an outdated lead from the AF?!?!

NHQ says "great job in your state, but don't you even think about putting that award on your uniform".  Maybe until USAF says OK on the AF-style, but right now we should be wearing any and all awards on all CAP corporate styles. 

Hell, on my CAP corporates I can now wear a white or back pistol belt, ranger whistles, ascot, ranger tabs and all that other junk bling.  Why not a freaking award or decoration "Awarded by competent military authority"??

[Gunner C]

Hell, on my CAP corporates I can now wear a white or back pistol belt, ranger whistles, ascot, ranger tabs and all that other junk bling.  Why not a freaking award or decoration "Awarded by competent military authority"??

There's no reason why CAP shouldn't allow the wear of state awards and decorations.  Here's a question:  I was awarded my jump wings as a member of the NG.  Is NHQ going to tell me that I can't wear them?

The guard is part of the total force - as long as one is not on AD (which we're not) we should be able to wear anything that was awarded by competent military authority.  Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

GC

[mikeylikey]

Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

GC

It's not dumb, it is a slap in the face by NHQ to all those members of the National Guard.  They are saying their service is not as good as an Active Duty Service member. 

I already sent this proposal up the chain of Command and it went no where.  I don't know what "I" can do.  I have three state ribbons that I would like to wear myself, and accepted the fact that while on AD I can't.  But come on, CAP is in no way close to being even remotely military.  I can't see why they would not allow this.  I think it has something to do with people at NHQ not wanting to wear less "real" bling than the general membership.  You know if the staff at NHQ (volunteers of course, like you and me) were awarded some ribbon or decoration from the state of Alabama, this issue would change overnight, and they would be wearing that award the next morning. 

[DeputyDog]

Here's a question:  I was awarded my jump wings as a member of the NG.  Is NHQ going to tell me that I can't wear them?

No. The jump wings are not a state award or a state decoration.

Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

+1

[RiverAux]

The thing to keep in mind is that CAP is a separate organization from the National Guard.  They don't recognize our decorations so we are under no obligation to recognize theirs.   

In any case this is not a slap in the face by CAP.  CAP is just following Air Force policy in regards to the AF-style uniforms.  Sure, we've got the option of allowing them on the corporate uniforms, but that just makes our uniform regulations even more complicated. 

Personally, I would be in favor of recognizing any earned state military decoration and if we were to ever clean up the discrepancies already mentioned in regard to military decorations that should be fixed at that time.

[mikeylikey]

In any case this is not a slap in the face by CAP.  CAP is just following Air Force policy in regards to the AF-style uniforms.  Sure, we've got the option of allowing them on the corporate uniforms, but that just makes our uniform regulations even more complicated. 

If I am not mistaken, the Air National Guard wear AF Uniforms, that have FEDERAL symbols all over them (reference the US cutouts, etc).  No where on a National Guard uniform does it say what state you are from.  (In my opinion, National Guard members should replace the US Air Force branch tapes with state specific tapes, but that is for another discussion). 

I don't think I have ever read of a proposal for State decorations to be worn on the AF style......you?  So that is a slap in the face, by not even pushing it up to be voted on.  We are adding JUNK (Ranger bling) to the AF style, I say screw that, lets get real decorations on their first.

The AF allows State decorations to be worn on the AF uniform, when those members are not on Active Duty.  Lets do the same for CAP.  Oh ya......we are never on Active Duty, so we will never have to worry about taking ribbons off or putting them on like Guardsman do, so it actually is easier for us.   

[BlueLakes1]

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

I'd disagree, this is a 39-1 issue, not a 39-3 issue.

The title of 39-3, "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates" says what the regulation is there to do - provide the rules of the road for the "who, what, where, when and why" people or units get decorated. The WEAR of these awards/decorations is a uniform issue, not an award issue, and 39-3 has no governance over uniforms. Indeed, if "how to wear decorations" wasn't really a uniform issue, then why is an entire chapter of CAPM 39-1 (Chapter 5) there to tell you how to wear them? For precedent, note that we follow the precedence of awards chart in CAPM 39-1 Table 5-2, placing the Crossfield ribbon ahead of the Yeager, in contradiction to the precedence listed in CAPR 39-3. Remember, "COMPLICANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" (CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1-1).

The main problem with trying to tie military awards, and their wear, into 39-3 is that the award of an Air Medal, Purple Heart, or any other USAF or other military branch decoration has nothing to do with the "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates"; a CAP regulation has no governance over whether or not they may be awarded to a CAP member. The direction for its wear then must come from the uniform manual, which does allow the wear, providing that the award was made, in writing, by competent military authority.

Incidentally, AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Awards and Decorations Program, makes absolutely no mention of how to wear the decorations that it provides for. That's all in Chapter 4 of AFI 36-2903, Dress and Appearance of Air Force Personnel. CAP should follow their lead and put everything in one place, rather than having the two conflict.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Clarifying the mud:

1.  Air National Guardsmen CAN wear state awards of the AF uniform.  

2.  ANG'ers who enter onto FEDERAL active duty (longer than 30 days, I think) must remove their state awards.

3.  AF Reservists CANNOT wear state awards on their AF uniforms at any time.

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule.

5.  If you were given a state award, and you subsequently join a NG or State Defense Force unit (even in another state) the award is yours to wear, just not on the CAP uniform.

6.  I believe that CAP regulations authorize wear of FEDERAL awards, given by military authority for CAP service.  The fact that CAP, in Federal service is a part of the Air Force cannot be ignored.  The regulation, while confusing and contradictory, is intended to rule out the wear of courtesy awards and badges, just as in the case of foreign wings given as momentoes or souvenirs.  An award given for superiour performance on an AFAM by the Air Force is a valid award and CAN be worn on the uniform.  

7.  To argue with the point made in Item 6 above is to defend a stupid interpretation of the regulations, and therefore will mark you as a stupid person.

8.  Stupidity is not good, and should be avoided if possible.  

[isuhawkeye]

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule

Only while operating on a federal Mission Number.

The old title 10/36 debate, and that implies that CAP is more like the guard than the reserves

[JayT]

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

I'd disagree, this is a 39-1 issue, not a 39-3 issue.

The title of 39-3, "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates" says what the regulation is there to do - provide the rules of the road for the "who, what, where, when and why" people or units get decorated. The WEAR of these awards/decorations is a uniform issue, not an award issue, and 39-3 has no governance over uniforms. Indeed, if "how to wear decorations" wasn't really a uniform issue, then why is an entire chapter of CAPM 39-1 (Chapter 5) there to tell you how to wear them? For precedent, note that we follow the precedence of awards chart in CAPM 39-1 Table 5-2, placing the Crossfield ribbon ahead of the Yeager, in contradiction to the precedence listed in CAPR 39-3. Remember, "COMPLICANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" (CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1-1).

The main problem with trying to tie military awards, and their wear, into 39-3 is that the award of an Air Medal, Purple Heart, or any other USAF or other military branch decoration has nothing to do with the "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates"; a CAP regulation has no governance over whether or not they may be awarded to a CAP member. The direction for its wear then must come from the uniform manual, which does allow the wear, providing that the award was made, in writing, by competent military authority.

Incidentally, AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Awards and Decorations Program, makes absolutely no mention of how to wear the decorations that it provides for. That's all in Chapter 4 of AFI 36-2903, Dress and Appearance of Air Force Personnel. CAP should follow their lead and put everything in one place, rather than having the two conflict.

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

[BlueLakes1]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

[JayT]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

Last I checked, 39-3 didn't just cover ribbons and medals.

[BlueLakes1]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

Last I checked, 39-3 didn't just cover ribbons and medals.

You're right, it does cover other awards and decorations that aren't worn. If they're not worn on the uniform, then there's no uniform issue.

[JohnKachenmeister]

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule

Only while operating on a federal Mission Number.

The old title 10/36 debate, and that implies that CAP is more like the guard than the reserves

I agree with you.  Unfortunately, National HQ does not.

[DNall]

CAP answers to the federal govt (specifically thru the AF), for which we are required to recognize federal awards. And we answer to the corporation (thru NB/NEC to BoG to Congress), for which we grant organizational awards.

While the corporation may at times authorize missions for a state, those are corporate missions, not state missions. At no time does CAP answer to any state. Specifically, at no time does CAP answer to any state TAG. As such, we do not recognize state awards granted by TAG. It's that simple.

[isuhawkeye]

I can not speak to the Kansas awards, so I apologize for the thread drift, but my award which was awarded by my state's TAG, and was subsequently rejected by this board is in fact a DOD award.  Presented through the Department of the Amy.


http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/CommandersPublicServiceAward.htm




As such it appears to be a "Federal" award.

Just because a TAG awards it don't assume that it is "only a state award"

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can not speak to the Kansas awards, so I apologize for the thread drift, but my award which was awarded by my state's TAG, and was subsequently rejected by this board is in fact a DOD award.  Presented through the Department of the Amy.


http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/CommandersPublicServiceAward.htm




As such it appears to be a "Federal" award.

Just because a TAG awards it don't assume that it is "only a state award"

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

[ddelaney103]

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

Actually, MAY also be a federal general officer - it's not required.  If the TAG dosen't meet the standards they don't have to extend federal recognition.

MD's TAG before last was a federal 2 star and a MD 3 star.  If he wanted to wear US brass, he had to ditch the 3rd star.