Should Senior Members wear uniforms?

[LTC_Gadget]

Why is being a senior member such an excuse? Thats the example that must be made by the higher ups. Otherwise they are hipocrits and I would probably not listen to the orders recieved from them.

And you would be out of line, cadet.  It's not for *you* to decide whether you would listen to their orders or not.  If you are given an order which is not illegal, not against regulation, and doesn't put anyone's life, limb or property at risk, then if you don't follow the order, you've committed insubordination, and an example should be made of your impudent backside.

Procedural note: When you 'insert' yourself in an adult discussion, be mindful of the tone you take, what you say, and when or if you say it.  We're not your parents.  We don't find everything that you say to be 'cute' or admirable. We don't have to tolerate every audacious thing that comes out of your mouth, or streams from your fingertips, or 'grin and bear it.' It would seem that you have very little, if any philosophical background from which to speak on this issue.. Take care, young one.  The ice is thin under your feet....

Regards,

[DNall]

Don't be so hard on him, he makes a very fair point. Any leader that thinks they can lead because their position grants them authority is on the path to failure. You very much do require the trust & respect of your subordinates. Certainly you can stand over them & instruct each individual task for them to do as you directly supervise, and they'll do what they're told, but that's rather useless to get anything done. You absolutely must earn the faith of your subordinates, & sell them on a vision they have to choose to take ownership of, and then you have to take care of them all the way thru.

If you think you can lead successfully without setting the right example or without asking for your people's follow you, then you will fail virtually every time. That's absolute historical fact.

So the kid gets a little uppity calls us SMs out, asks what makes us think we're of such a better class that we can get away without setting the example we demand of our subordinates, and that the outside world demands as their expectation of a professional standard. Disrespectful, maybe even a bit out of line, but you don't think it deserves a straight answer? You don't think that point needs to be reinforced on our officers? I certainly do.

[SarDragon]

What do the regs say?

That should be the answer...

Now that being said, should a squdron have a standard uniform?  ie, all golf shirt, or all corporate gray or TPU.

What would be the best way to make all seniors 'uniform'?  Understanding that a number of seniors do not meet weight and/or grooming for AF blues/ BDUs.  Should a standard corporate be in order?

I always thought that the TPU addressed that question perfectly. Just about every member can wear the uniform and it is a decent looking one. If actual uniformity is your goal, the TPU/BBDU can be the answer.

George, you've done it again. What about those of us who can't wear the TPU? You still haven't addressed that question.

[Pumbaa]

Seems I have been quoted a couple of times, but the main point has not been addressed yet, perhaps I was not clear in my question...

My main concern is being "uniform" at meetings...  We have some who are not in weight regs.. thus the AFU is out.  We have some like myself who prefer to maintain a well trimmed goatee and mustache, thus the TPU and AFU is out.  We have some who wear the Grays such as me, some who wear Polo, some who wear AFU, and one in flight suit as he usually comes in from the plane.

So what would be the best policy?  Continue to let people wear whatever they want or go with the lowest common denominator?

At this point we have been trying to match the cadets on UotD, BDU nights, PT night, Blues Night.  Would the first point of order be to just have one standard uniform. Period? For Officers? Since we are not doing the same type of activities as the cadets, that would warrent the OotD difference.

Then winnow down to say to TPU and Greys? or AFU and Grays as it used to be?

Do we mandate all shave so everyone is in the TPU?

I also think the cadet was semi out of line, perhaps just in the phrasiology of his statement.  What I think he was trying to convey was on, just needs to learn to phrase the question better...

Just a couple of weeks ago the cadet commander and cadet XO of our squadron presented the same question of uniforms for officers to us.

ETA: I think the TPU put a variable in, that causes more problems than fixes in terms of 'uniform'.

[RiverAux]

I think it is a hopeless task to try to require a specific uniform for any activity in CAP given all the options available and the requirements that keep some people from wearing some uniforms. 

Unfortunately, the lowest common denomiator of the uniform that everyone can wear is either the golf shirt or gray pant/white shirt combo or BBDUs.  From what I can tell, those who can wear the AF-style, usually will wear the AF style and will probably not want to spend extra money so that they can be "uniform" with people unwilling to meet the AF-style guidelines.   

[ColonelJack]

The "lowest common denominator" is what the regs already call for -- the minimum basic service uniform (for those who can wear AF) or the aviator shirt and blue trousers (corporate, meets grooming) and aviator shirt/golf shirt and grey trousers (those who don't meet grooming).  I'm kind of lost as to the substance of the discussion here.

To the cadet who "called out" senior members -- I have to agree with Lt. Col. Boyd on this one, though DNall has a valid point as well.  (Once again, no, I'm not running for office.)  Col. Boyd is right in pointing out that cadets simply don't call out officers.  It is out of line, way out of line.  But the youngster raises a question that should be answered, as Dennis asserts.  It's all in how you ask the question, though, that will get you the answer you seek.

Jack

[Eclipse]

What do the regs say?

That should be the answer...

Now that being said, should a squdron have a standard uniform?  ie, all golf shirt, or all corporate gray or TPU.

What would be the best way to make all seniors 'uniform'?  Understanding that a number of seniors do not meet weight and/or grooming for AF blues/ BDUs.  Should a standard corporate be in order?

I always thought that the TPU addressed that question perfectly. Just about every member can wear the uniform and it is a decent looking one. If actual uniformity is your goal, the TPU/BBDU can be the answer.

George, you've done it again. What about those of us who can't wear the TPU? You still haven't addressed that question.

Why can't you wear the TPU?

[Eclipse]

Just a personal per peeve... the golf shirt was designed & sold as a novelty item NOT a uniform, but a bunch of people started wearing it in lieu of a uniform (breaking regs) and that presented an insurance/liability problem for the org, at the same time some people were trying to get it adopted as an official uniform for glider instructors... so it was adopted, but never should have been & IMO it is inappropriate for wear when conducting business as an officer. Just my personal view though. I have no problem with people wearing the other corporate style uniforms. I don't like some details of them, but they are on the whole appropriate.

Just about every major service organization, police, fire, and public service agency has a golf shirt uniform at some level of their members or agents, including ALL the major 3- and 4-letter agencies and the Red Cross.

Depending on the activity, it is completely appropriate.

[MIKE]

Why can't you wear the TPU?

Because he has a beard.

[IronRangerMN]

It has worked. I'm off this site forever.

Thanks to anyone that has answered questions or I have gotten good information from. This site does provide a knowledge base for a lot of questions anyone could have. Fly safe and good luck everyone.

[ZigZag911]

Its not a puishment, but a gift from the gods so that they may build muscle and endurance. When you constantly train, strength is a very nice thing to have. Endurance keeps you walking. But we do PT other than for inspection. Heck, its usually not because of inspection. Its just to get exercise. At least until we can get our obsticle course up and running. That was a long winter.

Thanks for clarifying that, didn't want to see folks getting the wrong impression of your squadron!

[IronRangerMN]

Have fun everyone

[ZigZag911]

You don't want a load of fatigued cadets, do you?

Only when it's time to send them to their racks!

[afgeo4]

What do the regs say?

That should be the answer...

Now that being said, should a squdron have a standard uniform?  ie, all golf shirt, or all corporate gray or TPU.

What would be the best way to make all seniors 'uniform'?  Understanding that a number of seniors do not meet weight and/or grooming for AF blues/ BDUs.  Should a standard corporate be in order?

I always thought that the TPU addressed that question perfectly. Just about every member can wear the uniform and it is a decent looking one. If actual uniformity is your goal, the TPU/BBDU can be the answer.

George, you've done it again. What about those of us who can't wear the TPU? You still haven't addressed that question.

The problem isn't the uniform. The problem is that we, as members, aren't uniform. We aren't required to meet one standard. That's why we can't come up with one uniform to wear. If we made our members meet at least grooming standards we wouldn't have such issues. And why shouldn't we? Why shouldn't our members have a neat, professional, well-groomed appearance? What government agency allows for 3 foot beards gone haywire, 40" afros and nails as long as rifles? Maybe, just maybe if you aren't willing to shave in the morning, you aren't willing to do more taxing tasks? Or maybe you think you're too cool for school now that you're past 40? Well... this organization isn't for everyone and I think it shouldn't be.

[Pumbaa]

Capt. I partially agree with you.  But define neatly groomed.. I beleive my goatee is neatly groomed at less than an 1/8th inch and well trimmed.  If you would like to see a photo of it let me know.  Personally because of my facial structure I look better with some facial hair.  That being said..

Physically I am unable to do a number of tasks due to athritis in most of my joints.  Meaning I cannot run and I cannot do a sit and reach.. as a matter of fact getting off the floor is tough. I can do pushups and situps... I am on the border in terms of weight.  I am 5-9 at 195# just in the 10% zone.  But I will not wear the AF unless I am at AF weight. (Plus shave)

Now I think the issue is that we are volunteers and we pay to play.  As volunteers the thought is that I am DONATING my time and giving TO CAP.  Thus I beleive why the alternate uniform came to be.  I agree with having an alternate. But....

The main issue is having so many variables, having SMs wearing multiple styles at meeetings and also not wearing the AFU properly when worn.

Sometimes, I think CAP SMs need only 2 uniforms.. One for AF compliance and the other for grooming and weight non compliance.  Not 4.. TPU is weight non compliance only. And polo..

How about they drop 2 of the 3 alternatives.. iw TPU, Grey, Polo, then just one AF compliant and one non compliant. Period.

One thought, go just to polo for the non compliant.. This means if you wantto wear a y uniform you MUST be compliant.. None of this lookalike fatboy unshven uniform.

The problem now is we have uniforms that are sooooo close, why bother wearing the AF?

Still my issue is at meetings you have 5-6 different uniforms being worn at a meeting.

[DNall]

Now I think the issue is that we are volunteers and we pay to play.  As volunteers the thought is that I am DONATING my time and giving TO CAP.  Thus I beleive why the alternate uniform came to be.  I agree with having an alternate.

I sympathize with a lot of your points, but I just wnat to contrast you on this one.

You give your time & money right? You dues are what like $75 a year? The AF spends literally 10 times that for every single member every single year. The total contribution by all members, sponsors, grants, state funds, etc... all other sources beside the AF, accounts for less than 10% of funds expended by CAP each year. And that's just direct appropriations, and does not consider the cost of CAP-USAF or any of the facilities or surplus supplies they make avail to us throughout the year. You break that annual appropriation down to a per active ES operator basis & it gets ridiculous very fast.

I know I spend a lot more than $75/yr on CAP, more than $750, and I know we could find a really good use for three times the federal funds every year, but I really think a lot of people tend to lose perspective on things. For everything we do as individuals, the AF does a whole lot more & we owe them for that. I'd use the word fealty, but not everyone would agree with that.

[Eagle400]

The problem isn't the uniform. The problem is that we, as members, aren't uniform. We aren't required to meet one standard. That's why we can't come up with one uniform to wear.

That's a good point.  How many squadrons have a uniform of the day for officers?  Probably not many.  I know the one nearest me does not.  In fact, most of the seniors wear the golf shirt uniform, which (if I'm not mistaken) is a novelty uniform that does not allow for insurance coverage.   

If we made our members meet at least grooming standards we wouldn't have such issues. And why shouldn't we? Why shouldn't our members have a neat, professional, well-groomed appearance?

There's no reason why members shouldn't be neat, professional, and well-groomed.  The problem is there isin't (or doesn't seem to be) much punishment for officers who are habitually out of uniform regs, be it for improper grooming or weight. 

What government agency allows for 3 foot beards gone haywire, 40" afros and nails as long as rifles? Maybe, just maybe if you aren't willing to shave in the morning, you aren't willing to do more taxing tasks? Or maybe you think you're too cool for school now that you're past 40? Well... this organization isn't for everyone and I think it shouldn't be.

I agree.  Even though CAP members are volunteers, there are rules and regulations set forth by both the Air Force and CAP that must be followed by everyone.  Some of these rules are designed to be exclusive, such as weight and grooming rules.  If it were not for the CAP distinctive uniforms, the weight and grooming rules for CAP would be exclusive. 

[Al Sayre]

The problem isn't the uniform. The problem is that we, as members, aren't uniform. We aren't required to meet one standard. That's why we can't come up with one uniform to wear.

That's a good point.  How many squadrons have a uniform of the day for officers?  Probably not many.  I know the one nearest me does not.  In fact, most of the seniors wear the golf shirt uniform, which (if I'm not mistaken) is a novelty uniform that does not allow for insurance coverage.   

You are mistaken.  The Golf Shirt Uniform is "a uniform" as described in CAPM 39-1, and does meet the requirements for insurance coverage.

[Eagle400]

You are mistaken.  The Golf Shirt Uniform is "a uniform" as described in CAPM 39-1, and does meet the requirements for insurance coverage.

I stand corrected.  Thanks for the clarification, sir. 

[sschwab]

Just my $ 0.02, our senior squadron commander recommends that uniforms are worn, but does not require it.  She usually wears the golf shirt, and has a good reason.  If you wear the AF style uniform, then you should also wear the proper AF outerwear, and so you should by the proper AF coat, which means you buy another coat, even though it is not as warm as the one the normally wear.  Just more money to the "Come And Pay" cause.

Ever since she had to walk three miles out from forced landing, she makes the point that you should be warm and ready to walk in the weather you may land in.  If that means your favorite, warm coat, wear the darn coat.

Personally, I'd rather donate the money spent on multiple uniforms to the squadron to pay for unfunded training flights, spend it on a camel pack, hand held radio, or other gear required for a mission.  Plus, you can always find a composite squadron with a cadet whose family can't afford the basic 24 hour pack gear.

With cadets, it is very different.  Uniforms should be warn, since they are required too, plus the markings on your collar mean more when cadets are around.

Remember, we are here to save lives and help teens, not to play "Air Force".  If you want to play "Air Force", go all the way, enlist.

2LT Schwab