Epaulet Conversion Kit

[Abby.L]

I have recently gotten my hands on 2 service coats, one old-style, one new-style. Problem is that neither of them have epaulets(You'd think the old style would?). I've heard through the grapevine that there are conversion kits out there, but I have no idea where they are. I am a C/2dLt(As you can see in my sig), so I would really prefer to have epaulets as it makes things easier for color guards, honor guards, ect. Besides, it's easier to sew velcro on through an epaulet than 2 inches of fake shoulders.

So, anyone know where these fabled kits of magic are? Thanks for the help!

[lordmonar]

They don't exist anymore.

Once you add tailoring costs.....it would just be cheaper to buy a new service coat.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

[Abby.L]

Well, okay. I still want epaulets, so are there any epaulet templates or something? At this point, I don't care about the tailoring cost, as I have some money to throw around. Okay, not really, but I'll find a way to get them on.  :angel:

[abdsp51]

If you have the funds just procur a new coat.   Trying to modify something is not always in your best interest.

[lordmonar]

Well, okay. I still want epaulets, so are there any epaulet templates or something? At this point, I don't care about the tailoring cost, as I have some money to throw around. Okay, not really, but I'll find a way to get them on.  :angel:

Then buy a new coat.   

[Eclipse]

Most cadets velcro the shoulder boards and move on with their day.

There are some tailors who can use material and buttons from an serviceable jacket and build some epaulets, but again, not worth the hassle
for cadets.

[MSG Mac]

Check the local MCSS. They may have some kits laying around in a back room.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Most cadets velcro the shoulder boards and move on with their day.

There are some tailors who can use material and buttons from an serviceable jacket and build some epaulets, but again, not worth the hassle
for cadets.

Or use press-studs.

[Pylon]

An officer in my squadron took an unserviceable new-style jacket and cut and sewed his own epaulets from the fabric, found matching buttons and made the whole thing look identical to the real deal for zero cost.  But it takes a fairly knowledgeable handle on sewing to do it well.


The conversion kits should be something that Vanguard creates for us.  There's enough cheap enlisted jackets out there on eBay (in the $20-$40 range) that could be converted to officer versions (and a corresponding lack of abundance of second-hand officer service jackets) that a conversion kit would make good fiscal sense and save CAP members money.


What I also don't understand is that the Air Force new-style enlisted and officer jackets are 100% identical, except that AAFES adds epaulets to the shoulder and sleeve braid to the sleeve on the officer version.  Yet, they charge $86.54 MORE for the officer version ($179.95 for the officer vs. $93.41 for the enlisted from the exchange).  I can't fathom how sleeve braid and a pair of cloth epaulets can possibly cost an extra $86.54.

[abdsp51]

The officers coat comes with the braid but it is not attached to it due to the alterations that would need to be made.  But it's crazy the additional cost for an officers coat.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What I don't get is why there have to be two different styles anyway...there weren't two different styles of the Tony Nelson service coat.

When General Fogleman partially demodded the Tony McPeak coat the version with epaulettes should have been standard.

[flyboy53]

I have recently gotten my hands on 2 service coats, one old-style, one new-style. Problem is that neither of them have epaulets(You'd think the old style would?). I've heard through the grapevine that there are conversion kits out there, but I have no idea where they are. I am a C/2dLt(As you can see in my sig), so I would really prefer to have epaulets as it makes things easier for color guards, honor guards, ect. Besides, it's easier to sew velcro on through an epaulet than 2 inches of fake shoulders.

So, anyone know where these fabled kits of magic are? Thanks for the help!

Military bases where there is accession training, especially officers, has a uniform shop off base that caters to officers. So, like Lackland AFB, Texas, has a uniform shop called Kellac's just outside the rear gate that goes to the Madina Annex. They have a web site. You can call them and ask to purchase the kit. The last one I bought there was for my daughter, when she converted from cadet to flight officer. I think I paid $17 dollars for the kit: two epaullets, two buttons and the sleve braid.

Otherwise, the BX at Maxwell may be another good site because that's where OTS is now. For Rocky Mountain Region, perhaps the Air Force Academy has such a uniform shop off base.

[titanII]

If the two service coats you got your hands on belong to you, and not your squadron, then you could sell them, and use the cash from those two to buy an actual service coat with epaulets.

[spacecommand]

Slightly OT, but the "old style" (pre-mcpeak) service coat had epaulettes even for enlistedmen.  Which version of the old style one had no epaulettes, are you sure it's even an old style jacket or even USAF jacket at all?

[VPI18]

Slightly OT, but the "old style" (pre-mcpeak) service coat had epaulettes even for enlistedmen.  Which version of the old style one had no epaulettes, are you sure it's even an old style jacket or even USAF jacket at all?

It definitely an old style jacket. I would know because I sold it to him.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

Which is why I had the epaulets removed.

[Abby.L]

Slightly OT, but the "old style" (pre-mcpeak) service coat had epaulettes even for enlistedmen.  Which version of the old style one had no epaulettes, are you sure it's even an old style jacket or even USAF jacket at all?

It definitely an old style jacket. I would know because I sold it to him.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

Which is why I had the epaulets removed.

Bahaha. I was expecting this, actually. I had purchased them with the intent of getting epaulets put on anyway. I purchased them mainly because of the size(They fit fantastically, might I add), so epaulets were a secondary concern. Now that the first concern's finished with, I can now focus on the second.

[abdsp51]

Slightly OT, but the "old style" (pre-mcpeak) service coat had epaulettes even for enlistedmen.  Which version of the old style one had no epaulettes, are you sure it's even an old style jacket or even USAF jacket at all?

It definitely an old style jacket. I would know because I sold it to him.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

Which is why I had the epaulets removed.

So the coat was rendered unserviceable....

[Abby.L]

Slightly OT, but the "old style" (pre-mcpeak) service coat had epaulettes even for enlistedmen.  Which version of the old style one had no epaulettes, are you sure it's even an old style jacket or even USAF jacket at all?

It definitely an old style jacket. I would know because I sold it to him.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

Which is why I had the epaulets removed.

So the coat was rendered unserviceable....

Looks perfectly fine, actually. If I had gotten this coat back when I was enlisted, I would've been pretty happy. It's a professional removal, as I couldn't find a broken seam if I tried.

[abdsp51]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

[PHall]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is who do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

[Abby.L]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is why do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

Bold's mine. I assume you mean "Why." So, why do we? Well, I like them, personally, aside from the installation issues. They are a tradition, and one that should stay. They look classy, distinct, yet professional. They allow for installation on non-epaulet jackets(Yea, yea...), and epaulet jackets alike. We could pin our officer grade to the epaulets, but then the folks with enlisted jackets have a problem.

[SarDragon]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is who do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

Well, they were a big deal when they were introduced. Is there any really good reason to get rid of them after 40+ years?

[Extremepredjudice]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is who do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

Well, they were a big deal when they were introduced. Is there any really good reason to get rid of them after 40+ years?

More modern look? Something cheaper?

Or something you don't have to buy a new one once you go from Capt. to major.

[MSG Mac]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is who do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

Well, they were a big deal when they were introduced. Is there any really good reason to get rid of them after 40+ years?

$30/each. Is the most expensive item on the cadet uniform. If cadet uniforms had epaulets I would advocate use of the current sleeve that is normally worn on the shirt. Since they don't, I would suggest modifying the current uniform by adding to loops on each shoulder and using an epaulet that has a loop underneath (like the current mess dress boards) to attach it to.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

MSG Mac has a good idea.

I've also thought that SM's should use ROTC shoulder marks with CAP cutouts...we would still have the AF connection but also have the "distinctiveness" so many gripe about.

[ColonelJack]

MSG Mac has a good idea.

I've also thought that SM's should use ROTC shoulder marks with CAP cutouts...we would still have the AF connection but also have the "distinctiveness" so many gripe about.

Agreed on MSgt Mac's idea!

As for SMs and the ROTC marks ... I had thought when the AF ditched the sleeve rank of the McPeak jacket that we should've picked it up.  Talk about distinctive from the AF ... and we would be distinctive from CGAUX too, with the cut of the coat and all.

But did anybody listen to me?  Of course not.

Jack

[PHall]

Just saying, and honestly I think we should redesign the shoulder boards for cadet officers.

The bigger question is who do we still have the Cadet Officer shoulder boards?

Well, they were a big deal when they were introduced. Is there any really good reason to get rid of them after 40+ years?

40 years ago they were worn "everyday". Now you can only wear them on your Service Dress Uniform, if you have one...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ok, so you go to the slides, and now the cadet needs an Officer new style jacket, or an old style that will fit....

[abdsp51]

Cadets can wear an officers service coat the only drawback it's expensive as heck and used ones are in short supply. I don't mind the shoulder boards but maybe an idea to take a page out of AFJROTC's book and allow them to pin their grade to the lapels?  The only thing about the boards I didn't like was that they were a pain to attach to the coat.

And the sleeve rank scheme McPeak implemented was hideous to the extreme as well as half of his uniform changes, come one leather aircrew patch for everyone and removal of grade from the BDU hideous. 

[ColonelJack]

I think MOST of McPeak's uniform changes bordered on the ludicrous.  As a friend of mine who was a LtCol in the AF Reserve said when the McPeak uniform came out, "I'm retiring.  If I wanted to look like I worked for Delta Airlines, I'd go to work for Delta Airlines."

But that being said - well, that and the fact that McPeak had an answer for a problem that did not exist - I still liked the sleeve stripe insignia for officers for CAP once the AF was done with it.  Distinctive, yes?

Jack

[abdsp51]

Distinctive yes, but too much like the Navy and a commercial pilot and I think a step away from our heritage.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Distinctive yes, but too much like the Navy and a commercial pilot and I think a step away from our heritage.

I remember rumours back in the mid '90s that we were going to get the sleeve rings, except they'd be light blue.

I think it's just here in the U.S. that the "Navy/CG/commercial pilot" thing comes to mind.

Around the world a lot of air forces use sleeve rings/epaulette stripes.


Royal Danish Air Force


Royal Canadian Air Force


Royal Australian Air Force


Romanian Air Force


Belgian Armed Forces/Air Component


Hellenic (Greece) Air Force


Royal Netherlands Air Force


British Royal Air Force

Having said that, if we were to go to sleeve rings (which I did not suggest; I suggested AFROTC shoulder marks), some dim bulb would say "let's make them grey!"

[Major Carrales]

They don't exist anymore.

Once you add tailoring costs.....it would just be cheaper to buy a new service coat.

IMHO cadets officer look better with out the epaulet.  YMMV.

Not so...I have a friendly tailor who "converted" a jacket for me for $25 dollars and did a very professional job.   She is an old friend of the family.  One might have a similar opportunity.

I also had a cadet officer wear the shoulder boards on a jacket (new style) without epaulets, it required some minor alterations to the uniforms, however, the shoulder boards were much more professional looking than one I say where the jacket's epaulets were visible.

[flyboy53]

I think MOST of McPeak's uniform changes bordered on the ludicrous.  As a friend of mine who was a LtCol in the AF Reserve said when the McPeak uniform came out, "I'm retiring.  If I wanted to look like I worked for Delta Airlines, I'd go to work for Delta Airlines."

But that being said - well, that and the fact that McPeak had an answer for a problem that did not exist - I still liked the sleeve stripe insignia for officers for CAP once the AF was done with it.  Distinctive, yes?

Jack

You had to be in the Air Force when all that was going on.

General McPeak was big on image and was doing his best to leave a permanent mark on the Air Force. He had been a Thunderbird and even promoted/expected everyone to follow his dietary regiment that included split pea soup for lunch. He went about pushing that uniform in the same way that a certain ex-national commander did his. Those who got the uniforms were part of a test group or were assigned to the Washington Military District and were purchasing the uniform as a means to show support with the Chief of Staff. So, most people were holding out until the very end of the phase in period before they would buy it. Otherwise, you were trapped if you got promoted or had to purchase sone new uniform item like a tie or a flight cap, because he engineered it that all existing uniform supplies were depleted to make way for the new uniform. As I remember, my experience with the new uniform started with the purchase of a new tie and flight cap. Then, $400 later, I was into a new set of dress blues.

It was depleting all the existing uniform supplies and having contractors re-tool to the new uniform is the reason why we have the current Air Force uniform. Within three to six hours after General Fogleman took command, a twix message was sent to the field advising that the new uniform was on hold. Some time later, a second message went into the field with detailed changes...much of which is still in place today.

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

[titanII]

I also had a cadet officer wear the shoulder boards on a jacket (new style) without epaulets, it required some minor alterations to the uniforms, however, the shoulder boards were much more professional looking than one I say where the jacket's epaulets were visible.

What alterations had to be done to the new style enlisted service coat to put on the shoulder boards? I'm curious because I have an enlisted service coat, and hope to get my Mitchell (in a while, but still).

[Major Carrales]

I also had a cadet officer wear the shoulder boards on a jacket (new style) without epaulets, it required some minor alterations to the uniforms, however, the shoulder boards were much more professional looking than one I say where the jacket's epaulets were visible.

What alterations had to be done to the new style enlisted service coat to put on the shoulder boards? I'm curious because I have an enlisted service coat, and hope to get my Mitchell (in a while, but still).

I can't remember exactly, however, I am seeing this cadet on Thursday and will examine it in detail, maybe photos.  Please stand by...

[lordmonar]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

[Extremepredjudice]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

[titanII]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

Would you need to do that on both the jacket and the shoulder board, or do the shoulder boards come with velcro on the back?

[lordmonar]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

Would you need to do that on both the jacket and the shoulder board, or do the shoulder boards come with velcro on the back?

Sew the fuzzy side to your uniform jacket.....glue the rough side to undersid of the shoulder boards.

[SarDragon]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

All Velcro is hook and loop (hook and pile) tape. Not all hook and loop is Velcro.

[PHall]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

All Velcro is hook and loop (hook and pile) tape. Not all hook and loop is Velcro.

Velcro is a brandname. Just like Xerox.

[Extremepredjudice]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

All Velcro is hook and loop (hook and pile) tape. Not all hook and loop is Velcro.

Velcro is a brandname. Just like Xerox.

I know. I was just making sure we were on the same page.

[SarDragon]

I did notice the likely recognition of the trademark with the big 'V' in EP's post.  :clap:

[PHall]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

All Velcro is hook and loop (hook and pile) tape. Not all hook and loop is Velcro.

Velcro is a brandname. Just like Xerox.

I know. I was just making sure we were on the same page.

I was clarifying your point.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, haven't we about beaten this horse enough?

[Abby.L]

FWIW, haven't we about beaten this horse enough?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

I think the main problem with it was that it was too plain and was cut (as is the current uni) like a business suit.

I only ever saw one officer wear it (a Ch/Capt).

It's not going away, of course...but I think there are better ways to "CAPise" it than just shoving grey epaulettes onto it.

[ColonelJack]

You had to be in the Air Force when all that was going on.

General McPeak was big on image and was doing his best to leave a permanent mark on the Air Force. He had been a Thunderbird and even promoted/expected everyone to follow his dietary regiment that included split pea soup for lunch. He went about pushing that uniform in the same way that a certain ex-national commander did his. Those who got the uniforms were part of a test group or were assigned to the Washington Military District and were purchasing the uniform as a means to show support with the Chief of Staff. So, most people were holding out until the very end of the phase in period before they would buy it. Otherwise, you were trapped if you got promoted or had to purchase sone new uniform item like a tie or a flight cap, because he engineered it that all existing uniform supplies were depleted to make way for the new uniform. As I remember, my experience with the new uniform started with the purchase of a new tie and flight cap. Then, $400 later, I was into a new set of dress blues.

It was depleting all the existing uniform supplies and having contractors re-tool to the new uniform is the reason why we have the current Air Force uniform. Within three to six hours after General Fogleman took command, a twix message was sent to the field advising that the new uniform was on hold. Some time later, a second message went into the field with detailed changes...much of which is still in place today.

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

WIWAD, the Tony Nelson jacket was all the rage!  (We'd just transitioned out of the 1505s, to give you an idea of when I speak.)

I didn't know all that about depleting uniform supplies, etc., or just how fast General Fogelman put a stop to the silliness. 

As for collectors ... while I don't have (and could never afford, at eBay rates anyway) one of the McPeak jackets, I do have one pair of major general's epaulet sleeves featuring his silver-along-the-side design.  Cool, I think.

Jack

[abdsp51]

Not a fan of the McPeak coat at all.  Hopefully the 4 pocket one they were testing is adopted, IMHO would look better than the Mitchell that was pitched especially with a black leather belt.

[lordmonar]

You had to be in the Air Force when all that was going on.

General McPeak was big on image and was doing his best to leave a permanent mark on the Air Force. He had been a Thunderbird and even promoted/expected everyone to follow his dietary regiment that included split pea soup for lunch. He went about pushing that uniform in the same way that a certain ex-national commander did his. Those who got the uniforms were part of a test group or were assigned to the Washington Military District and were purchasing the uniform as a means to show support with the Chief of Staff. So, most people were holding out until the very end of the phase in period before they would buy it. Otherwise, you were trapped if you got promoted or had to purchase sone new uniform item like a tie or a flight cap, because he engineered it that all existing uniform supplies were depleted to make way for the new uniform. As I remember, my experience with the new uniform started with the purchase of a new tie and flight cap. Then, $400 later, I was into a new set of dress blues.

It was depleting all the existing uniform supplies and having contractors re-tool to the new uniform is the reason why we have the current Air Force uniform. Within three to six hours after General Fogleman took command, a twix message was sent to the field advising that the new uniform was on hold. Some time later, a second message went into the field with detailed changes...much of which is still in place today.

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

WIWAD, the Tony Nelson jacket was all the rage!  (We'd just transitioned out of the 1505s, to give you an idea of when I speak.)

I didn't know all that about depleting uniform supplies, etc., or just how fast General Fogelman put a stop to the silliness. 

As for collectors ... while I don't have (and could never afford, at eBay rates anyway) one of the McPeak jackets, I do have one pair of major general's epaulet sleeves featuring his silver-along-the-side design.  Cool, I think.

Jack

??  The Mc Peak jacket is the same jacket enlisted guys wear today....with the addition of the silver rank bands (ala US Navy).
No name tag, no U.S. cut outs....just ribbons.

[flyboy53]

You had to be in the Air Force when all that was going on.

General McPeak was big on image and was doing his best to leave a permanent mark on the Air Force. He had been a Thunderbird and even promoted/expected everyone to follow his dietary regiment that included split pea soup for lunch. He went about pushing that uniform in the same way that a certain ex-national commander did his. Those who got the uniforms were part of a test group or were assigned to the Washington Military District and were purchasing the uniform as a means to show support with the Chief of Staff. So, most people were holding out until the very end of the phase in period before they would buy it. Otherwise, you were trapped if you got promoted or had to purchase sone new uniform item like a tie or a flight cap, because he engineered it that all existing uniform supplies were depleted to make way for the new uniform. As I remember, my experience with the new uniform started with the purchase of a new tie and flight cap. Then, $400 later, I was into a new set of dress blues.

It was depleting all the existing uniform supplies and having contractors re-tool to the new uniform is the reason why we have the current Air Force uniform. Within three to six hours after General Fogleman took command, a twix message was sent to the field advising that the new uniform was on hold. Some time later, a second message went into the field with detailed changes...much of which is still in place today.

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

WIWAD, the Tony Nelson jacket was all the rage!  (We'd just transitioned out of the 1505s, to give you an idea of when I speak.)

I didn't know all that about depleting uniform supplies, etc., or just how fast General Fogelman put a stop to the silliness. 

As for collectors ... while I don't have (and could never afford, at eBay rates anyway) one of the McPeak jackets, I do have one pair of major general's epaulet sleeves featuring his silver-along-the-side design.  Cool, I think.

Jack

??  The Mc Peak jacket is the same jacket enlisted guys wear today....with the addition of the silver rank bands (ala US Navy).
No name tag, no U.S. cut outs....just ribbons.

Yes, and officers went back to metal shoulder rank, epaulettes, ALL ribbons, and US collar insignia was restored (which is why CAP wears it now, too)...and so, this whole issue about the conversion kits. General Fogleman's logic at the time was that the Air Force didn't need another new uniform. As I remember, I was getting tired of it, too. When I joined the Air Force, it was the last year of 1505s, we went to short sleved shirts without epaulettes, then with them and even blues went through two different uniform shades. I went through two different types of windbreakers and even wore my beloved dark blue shirt with military creases on the final day of it's authorization. I went from a black mess dress to midnight blue and my last dress uniform was a synthetic doubleknit that snagged everytime you walked near anything or attached uniform insignia. I still have that one.

I think the thing that bugged me the most was my Security Police functional badge. Mine were issued, were silver-filled, and the organization I was in at the time required everything highly polished or chromed. I had to search for ones of the same standard.

By the way, I thought the heritage test uniforms were nixed because of budge issues and nobody could agree on which one.

If you want to read more about what happened during that period, follow this link:

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2009/January%202009/0109uniform.pdf

[Grumpy]

You had to be in the Air Force when all that was going on.

General McPeak was big on image and was doing his best to leave a permanent mark on the Air Force. He had been a Thunderbird and even promoted/expected everyone to follow his dietary regiment that included split pea soup for lunch. He went about pushing that uniform in the same way that a certain ex-national commander did his. Those who got the uniforms were part of a test group or were assigned to the Washington Military District and were purchasing the uniform as a means to show support with the Chief of Staff. So, most people were holding out until the very end of the phase in period before they would buy it. Otherwise, you were trapped if you got promoted or had to purchase sone new uniform item like a tie or a flight cap, because he engineered it that all existing uniform supplies were depleted to make way for the new uniform. As I remember, my experience with the new uniform started with the purchase of a new tie and flight cap. Then, $400 later, I was into a new set of dress blues.

It was depleting all the existing uniform supplies and having contractors re-tool to the new uniform is the reason why we have the current Air Force uniform. Within three to six hours after General Fogleman took command, a twix message was sent to the field advising that the new uniform was on hold. Some time later, a second message went into the field with detailed changes...much of which is still in place today.

...and the McPeak uniform now has the distinction of being the rarest and highly sought uniform for collectors......

WIWAD, the Tony Nelson jacket was all the rage!  (We'd just transitioned out of the 1505s, to give you an idea of when I speak.)

I didn't know all that about depleting uniform supplies, etc., or just how fast General Fogelman put a stop to the silliness. 

As for collectors ... while I don't have (and could never afford, at eBay rates anyway) one of the McPeak jackets, I do have one pair of major general's epaulet sleeves featuring his silver-along-the-side design.  Cool, I think.

Jack

??  The Mc Peak jacket is the same jacket enlisted guys wear today....with the addition of the silver rank bands (ala US Navy).
No name tag, no U.S. cut outs....just ribbons.

Yes, and officers went back to metal shoulder rank, epaulettes, ALL ribbons, and US collar insignia was restored (which is why CAP wears it now, too)...and so, this whole issue about the conversion kits. General Fogleman's logic at the time was that the Air Force didn't need another new uniform. As I remember, I was getting tired of it, too. When I joined the Air Force, it was the last year of 1505s, we went to short sleved shirts without epaulettes, then with them and even blues went through two different uniform shades. I went through two different types of windbreakers and even wore my beloved dark blue shirt with military creases on the final day of it's authorization. I went from a black mess dress to midnight blue and my last dress uniform was a synthetic doubleknit that snagged everytime you walked near anything or attached uniform insignia. I still have that one.

I think the thing that bugged me the most was my Security Police functional badge. Mine were issued, were silver-filled, and the organization I was in at the time required everything highly polished or chromed. I had to search for ones of the same standard.

By the way, I thought the heritage test uniforms were nixed because of budge issues and nobody could agree on which one.

If you want to read more about what happened during that period, follow this link:

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2009/January%202009/0109uniform.pdf

Do you remember the white mess dress?  I do.

[MSG Mac]

[/quote]
Do you remember the white mess dress?  I do.
[/quote]

Yes, White for summer, Black for winter. I also remember the Fogelman White Dress Uniform, which was required of all Senior Officers. I think that was the last straw that led to his being asked to step down early.

[flyboy53]

/quote]
Do you remember the white mess dress?  I do.

Yes, White for summer, Black for winter. I also remember the Fogelman White Dress Uniform, which was required of all Senior Officers. I think that was the last straw that led to his being asked to step down early.
[/quote]]

If you're talking about the white mess dress, yes, I had one as a tech sergeant, but mine came from the thrift shop at Grissom AFB.

The white informal ceremonial uniform wasn't Fogleman or McPeak. That uniform had been around since before 1959. The reason why it wasn't common was because it was only required for general officers and optional for everyone else. If I remember correctly, the final phase out date for that one was 1993.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

[MSG Mac]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

Yes we did with modified shoulder boards and a CAP breastplate where the second buttons were. Black were for winter,white for summer.

[Major Carrales]

Tack on some Hook and loop tape.

You mean Velcro?

All Velcro is hook and loop (hook and pile) tape. Not all hook and loop is Velcro.

Velcro is a brandname. Just like Xerox.

So what?  We live in colloquial times...no one (and I mean know one) teaches anyone that.  A soda water is a "Coke," a facial tissue is a "Kleenex" and a bandage is a "Band Aide."  And to prove my point, the spell check on Google Chrome agrees.  lol

[cap235629]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

Seeing as CAP is at least 400% larger than the Irish Air Corps, WHY??

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^I wasn't saying import IAC uniforms/insignia lock, stock and barrel.

My own opinion is that they look sharp, they look like they belong to aviators, and it would at least give some colour to a CAP-distinctive uniform.

It would be a starting point.

[Newslick]

I know this is an old thread, but here is what I did and it may be of use to someone; I could only find an enlisted jacket, but I had a friend who owed me a favor and who is a first rate tailor, he makes things for professional sports teams.

1)I got the small Hap Arnold buttons and braid from Scamguard
2)I got an enlisted flight cap from the local surplus store (they had a pile of them).
3)I took pix of a real officer's jacket  showing the detain of the shoulder straps.
4) Sent my friend the jacket, shoulder boards, cap, braid and pix. He said "No problemo." He offered to fake the shoulder strap buttons and just attach that end of the straps with Velcro but I opted for the functional buttons.
5) He made shoulder straps out of the enlisted flight cap and expertly put them on. The shade is not exact but it is mostly covered up by the shoulder mark anyway. This is apparently not a job for amateurs, nor the faint hearted, as you eviscerate something you just paid good money for.
6)  He shortened the sleeves and sewed the braid on.

Bada bing, officer's jacket. Now I have to get it taken in, as I have a 13" drop.   
He also offered to install some completely hidden high tech shoulder mark shapers (in a pocket within the strap) but I do not need them.  That would have REALLY been hot rodding a uniform.

     Picayunish moment: Note, epaulettes are really the gray thingys we attach to the jacket (what we tend to call shoulder marks), the straps on the jackets are really shoulder straps or passants.

[Eclipse]

The "straps" on the jacket are the epaulettes.

The insignia are epaulette sleeves

[AirDX]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

Seeing as CAP is at least 400% larger than the Irish Air Corps, WHY??

Boy, somebody just has to drag weight standards into this, huh? 

[SarDragon]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

Epaulette (also spelled epaulet) is a type of ornamental shoulder piece or decoration used as insignia of rank by armed forces and other organizations.

Epaulettes are fastened to the shoulder by a shoulder strap or "passant", a small strap parallel to the shoulder seam, and the button near the collar, or by laces on the underside of the epaulette passing through holes in the shoulder of the coat. Colloquially, any shoulder straps with marks are also called epaulettes. The placement of the epaulette, its color and the length and diameter of its bullion fringe are used to signify the wearer's rank. At the join of the fringe and the shoulderpiece is often a metal piece in the form of a crescent. Although originally worn in the field, epaulettes are more common today on dress or ceremonial uniforms.

[NCRblues]

I own one of those white dress uniforms!!

[AngelWings]

The one reason I've been told by two-three MCSS workers explaining the extreme price difference between officer and enlisted coats was this: Enlisted are made by DSCP (now called DLATS), a government controlled vendor, for issue at BMT. The contracts for these jackets always demand high amounts, so high that there is an purposeful excess. That way they can be sold at the vendors. However, officer coats supposedly are made by civilian contractors in lower quantities. Why? There is much more enlisted airmen than commisioned officers. So the need for an excess is small, and the government sells them at higher prices.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

Seeing as CAP is at least 400% larger than the Irish Air Corps, WHY??

Boy, somebody just has to drag weight standards into this, huh? 

:clap:

The one reason I've been told by two-three MCSS workers explaining the extreme price difference between officer and enlisted coats was this: Enlisted are made by DSCP (now called DLATS), a government controlled vendor, for issue at BMT. The contracts for these jackets always demand high amounts, so high that there is an purposeful excess. That way they can be sold at the vendors. However, officer coats supposedly are made by civilian contractors in lower quantities. Why? There is much more enlisted airmen than commisioned officers. So the need for an excess is small, and the government sells them at higher prices.

One possibility, and throw brickbats if you must, could be for all of CAP to adopt the enlisted jacket, but with the mess dress shoulder boards.  They could be attached just as cadet officer boards are.

The mess dress shoulder boards are not cheap, but the cost would be offset (in part, anyway) by the much more ready availability of enlisted service coats at often-cheap used prices (Evilbay, thrift shops).

Also, they would be d*s*i*c*i*e - our officer boards are all blue, the AF's are blue/silver.

[MSG Mac]

The one reason I've been told by two-three MCSS workers explaining the extreme price difference between officer and enlisted coats was this: Enlisted are made by DSCP (now called DLATS), a government controlled vendor, for issue at BMT. The contracts for these jackets always demand high amounts, so high that there is an purposeful excess. That way they can be sold at the vendors. However, officer coats supposedly are made by civilian contractors in lower quantities. Why? There is much more enlisted airmen than commisioned officers. So the need for an excess is small, and the government sells them at higher prices.

They didn't mention that Officers have to buy their uniforms, while enlisted are issued their uniforms and receive a uniform allowance for the upkeep and replacement of uniform items. Officers get a 1x uniform stipend upon commissioning. But the commercially made uniforms are usually of a higher quality than the DCSP.

[Newslick]

Is this what you mean...and did CAP ever wear this?

Back on first topic thread deviation (epaulette conversion to piston rings/JROTC shoulder marks)  , I've used the example of the Irish Air Corps before but I think something like what they have (as long as some dim bulb doesn't demand that it be grey! ) would be quite distinctive for us, and still look aviation-related!

Seeing as CAP is at least 400% larger than the Irish Air Corps, WHY??

Boy, somebody just has to drag weight standards into this, huh? 

:clap:

The one reason I've been told by two-three MCSS workers explaining the extreme price difference between officer and enlisted coats was this: Enlisted are made by DSCP (now called DLATS), a government controlled vendor, for issue at BMT. The contracts for these jackets always demand high amounts, so high that there is an purposeful excess. That way they can be sold at the vendors. However, officer coats supposedly are made by civilian contractors in lower quantities. Why? There is much more enlisted airmen than commisioned officers. So the need for an excess is small, and the government sells them at higher prices.

One possibility, and throw brickbats if you must, could be for all of CAP to adopt the enlisted jacket, but with the mess dress shoulder boards.  They could be attached just as cadet officer boards are.

The mess dress shoulder boards are not cheap, but the cost would be offset (in part, anyway) by the much more ready availability of enlisted service coats at often-cheap used prices (Evilbay, thrift shops).

Also, they would be d*s*i*c*i*e - our officer boards are all blue, the AF's are blue/silver.

I really dislike those white mess uniforms. They all look like waiters at a country club, or organ grinder monkeys.
The gray shoulder boards have kind of grown on me and I am fine with them.
The McPeak uniform looked [darn] sharp I think, but ignored Air Force tradition. The RAF has more naval traditions and adapted naval ranks (like Wing Commander). Having the ranks on their sleeves is fine for them. The USAF came from the US Army, and as they are more a  Naval tradition the sleeve ranks did not work.  Plus the general tended to keep himself in McPeak physical condition, and that suit was cut for a runner's physique with no shoulders whatsoever. Don't know how I would ever have worn one, I am more the bodybuilder type. And I would shudder to think of the sight of the McPeak uni on some of us.     

[ZombieButter]

What are you all talking about by 'braid'? I thought the only difference between enlisted and officer was the epaulets.

[SarDragon]

What are you all talking about by 'braid'? I thought the only difference between enlisted and officer was the epaulets.

Officers also have 1/2" blue sleeve braid on their service dress coats.

[PHall]

What are you all talking about by 'braid'? I thought the only difference between enlisted and officer was the epaulets.

Officers wear a 1/2" dark blue braid on both sleeves 3" from the end of the sleeve. (Ref. CAPM 39-1, Table 2-1, Line 1)