Change the "V" device

[arajca]

Not

[JC004]

I don't see it as a huge issue.  Maybe a star would be alright, but whatever.

[necigrad]

From a lurker standpoint, lemme volunteer a different perspective.  Why should we use a "V" when it's the ONLY award in CAP (that I'm aware of) that uses it?  Why couldn't' it be a bronze or silver star which are used on a few more awards?  Personally I couldn't care either way, just something this argu...  conversation got me to thinking about.

[SarDragon]

OK, ten nots; and one assumed yes.

Any other takers?

[Al Sayre]

To flip the statement, just because you say there is a problem doesn't make it so.

Touche' - this is all just opinions.

Seriously though - I had an epiphany that wouldn't cost us any money, or any real heartburn, is incredibly simple to implement, and would satisfy even the most discriminating "award criteria and display nerd".

Ready for this - swap the devices between the Silver Medal of Valor and the Disaster Relief Ribbon. Put the silver "V" device on the Silver Medal of Valor, and put the silver stars on the Disaster Ribbon. Now, who has a problem with that? 

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

[jeders]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

is.........NOT

[OldSalt]

From a lurker standpoint, lemme volunteer a different perspective.  Why should we use a "V" when it's the ONLY award in CAP (that I'm aware of) that uses it?  Why couldn't' it be a bronze or silver star which are used on a few more awards?

^ IMO the three stars looks dumb on the SMV... This is the case for the silver and bronze "V" IMO.

Finally, some people with credible additions to the discussion, thanks.  :clap:  I would bet that underneath it all, the people who want the "V" device kept on the DRR really want a "V" device to show, and don't really care that it is appropriate or not. While I wouldn't necessarily say it "looks dumb", I would choose to say there's a more appropriate way to display it.

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

What is the operating budget of CAP? Anyone? Why wouldn't CAPNHQ spring for the $400.00 or more for a one-time replacement? Surely it is worth it to National to make sure that anyone who receives an award, especially our highest award for valor - wouldn't have to worry about the $2.00 possible outlay. Afterall, it is a earned award - right? We don't sell appropriate recognition do we? This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

Here's a question back at you bean counters - Do you think that those volunteers that risked their lives for others stopped to count the cost before rendering their service to anyone? And no, I am not a Vanguard employee and I hate having to pay out the nose for things just like the rest of you - but this issue cannot be reduced strickly to "cost". How much does it "cost" to save lives and prepare our Cadets for their future roles as leaders?

Silver "V" is more appropriate on the SMV than stars. It actually means what it is designed to show. Put the campaign stars on the Disaster Relief Ribbon where they are most appropriate.

[MIKE]

I would put an Operational Distinguishing device on the DR ribbon, but that is just me.   
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_523_2291_2293&products_id=8843

[Hawk200]

This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

Let's stop drawing paralells for lines that aren't even close. 

How much does it "cost" to save lives and prepare our Cadets for their future roles as leaders?

What does a ribbon device have to do with preparing cadets for leadership?

Silver "V" is more appropriate on the SMV than stars. It actually means what it is designed to show.

No, it's not appropriate on the SMV. What's appropriate for the SMV is a distinctive design. Right now it's just a BMV with attachments to make is something different.  It needs its own ribbon, not attachments changing the meaning of another one. That kind of change I could accept, it provides dignified distinctiveness appropriate to the award.

Put the campaign stars on the Disaster Relief Ribbon where they are most appropriate.

We don't have campaign stars. We don't have campaigns. Period.

However, there is no need to change it. What do we gain by doing so? What benefit does it serve? It's not going to make the military change their opinion of us. It certainly doesn't do anything for those barely familiar with CAP. What problem does this solve?

If it doesn't solve a problem, it is change for the sake of change. "Because we can" is not the same as "because we should".

[Al Sayre]

snip

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

What is the operating budget of CAP? Anyone? Why wouldn't CAPNHQ spring for the $400.00 or more for a one-time replacement? Surely it is worth it to National to make sure that anyone who receives an award, especially our highest award for valor - wouldn't have to worry about the $2.00 possible outlay. Afterall, it is a earned award - right? We don't sell appropriate recognition do we? This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

snip

Not sure where you get $400.00 from  figure $2.00 x 10,000 members (assume 1/5 of the total member population has DR with V) =  $20,000.00  If you were talking about replacing ultra-thins too, then(assume 1/2 of that population has ultra-thins) $50.00 x 5000 + $2.00 x 5000 = $260,000.00 over 1/4 million dollars out of member pockets just to replace a single ribbon.  Where is that going to come from?

[OldSalt]

I would put an Operational Distinguishing device on the DR ribbon, but that is just me.   
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_523_2291_2293&products_id=8843

Not sure of the criteria for an "O" - but I'd rather explain that the "O" is for a "Declared Emergency Operation" rather than trying to explain that a "V" device is for it. It just makes more sense. Think of it this way - would you put an "O" device on the SMV and then explain to people that the "O" is for Valor? 

Let's stop drawing paralells for lines that aren't even close.

The parallel is that both situations rely on "cost" as the deciding factor denying implementation.   

What does a ribbon device have to do with preparing cadets for leadership?

Let's see... how about Risk vs. Reward, Excellence vs. "Just Ok", Good Morale and Espirit de Corps vs. Just Showing Up

No, it's not appropriate on the SMV. What's appropriate for the SMV is a distinctive design. Right now it's just a BMV with attachments to make is something different.  It needs its own ribbon, not attachments changing the meaning of another one. That kind of change I could accept, it provides dignified distinctiveness appropriate to the award.

Hey, something we can agree on.    This would be the best possible outcome, however, there's that "cost" thing again. 

We don't have campaign stars. We don't have campaigns. Period.

Campaigns = Operations. Ok, let's just call them "Operation Stars". One star per Operation.

However, there is no need to change it. What do we gain by doing so? What benefit does it serve? It's not going to make the military change their opinion of us. It certainly doesn't do anything for those barely familiar with CAP. What problem does this solve?

If it doesn't solve a problem, it is change for the sake of change. "Because we can" is not the same as "because we should".

The "problem" being discussed is that the "V" device on the DRR is inappropriate. The "problem" is that the silver "V" device (if used at all) would be better utilized on the SMV - not the DRR. The "problem" is using the wrong tool for the job at hand. Could you do the job with the tool we have now? - Yes, but will it result in the best possible outcome given the job requirements? - No.

Not sure where you get $400.00 from  figure $2.00 x 10,000 members (assume 1/5 of the total member population has DR with V) =  $20,000.00  If you were talking about replacing ultra-thins too, then(assume 1/2 of that population has ultra-thins) $50.00 x 5000 + $2.00 x 5000 = $260,000.00 over 1/4 million dollars out of member pockets just to replace a single ribbon.  Where is that going to come from?

I think the $400.00 estimate was brought up for the SMV costs - not the DRR w/V. Ultrathins? Those are a personal preference - not a requirement. Those you purchase on your own. I think Ultrathin will add or replace ribbons to an existing set for a minimum cost. As far as devices alone - they are just glued on (Ultrathins). Pop off the old one and glue on the new. Done.

Basically, the gist is "Do the Right Thing" vs. "Keep the Cost Down". There's more to running a business than just running a business - there's running an ethical business you can be proud of.

What about funding it with the kickbacks from Vanguard we are supposedly getting?

[Eclipse]

I would bet that underneath it all, the people who want the "V" device kept on the DRR really want a "V" device to show, and don't really care that it is appropriate or not.

And I would say you are 100% wrong.

This is a combination of not worrying about things which don't need attention and understanding the true nature of CAP, including the evolving history of its decorations.

For the record, comparing the decorations of one service to another is foolhardy and insulting to both, especially when you are comparing a combatant service to a benevolent one.  The fact that you simply choose to ignore the full, multi-faceted use of the "V" across various services because it hurts your argument is humorous as well.

Opinions are awesome, we all have them, enjoy yours, but just because you feel you've had some revelation about an injustice doesn't mean anyone else cares or agrees, nor does it mean that those who feel status quo is fine somehow just "don't get it".

[lordmonar]

Okay.....since we are are talking about the "V" not being appropriate because "V" is for Valor..........we (and I said this before) just tell everyone that "V" is for "Vigilance".


End of story.

No one has to buy new ribbons.
No "real" veterans will get bent out of shape (not that they are now).
No confusion with the Bronze "V" on AD military ribbons (which there is not any right now).

Your not really making any head way because your basic premise is false.

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

[Eclipse]

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

I recall that this has always been what it represented.  Anyone saying otherwise is simply misinformed and we need to
correct their understanding politely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

Kidding aside, the word "valor" is never used in connection with the DR-V within CAP parlance, so whatever conjecture is applied to its meaning is in the eyes of the beholder and should not be our concern.

Vote = Vigilance.

[OldSalt]

This is a combination of not worrying about things which don't need attention and understanding the true nature of CAP, including the evolving history of its decorations.

Huh? OK, I'll bite - what is THE reason for the selection (and keeping) of the "V" device for the DRR?

For the record, comparing the decorations of one service to another is foolhardy and insulting to both, especially when you are comparing a combatant service to a benevolent one.  The fact that you simply choose to ignore the full, multi-faceted use of the "V" across various services because it hurts your argument is humorous as well.

Complete hearsay here. The insult is using a "V" device for something it is not historically designed for. What? - the sky is really green?... I thought it was blue - at least that's what I call it?
What "full, multi-faceted use of the "V" device" have I ignored? Show me anywhere (other than CAP) where the "V" device is put on a military ribbon to denote anything other than Valor in general, and Combat Valor specifically?

Opinions are awesome, we all have them, enjoy yours, but just because you feel you've had some revelation about an injustice doesn't mean anyone else cares or agrees, nor does it mean that those who feel status quo is fine somehow just "don't get it".

You obviously care because you replied to the thread. Look, just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

[Eclipse]

Its already been decided that it means "Vigilance".

[lordmonar]

just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

Okay....you used the word "improved".

So let's do a little change managment.

First sell it to me.

Why should I as a CAP member with a DRR with V have to go out and buy a new ribbon with a new device?
What are the benifits to me and how do they compare to the cost?

[OldSalt]

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

I recall that this has always been what it represented.  Anyone saying otherwise is simply misinformed and we need to
correct their understanding politely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

Kidding aside, the word "valor" is never used in connection with the DR-V within CAP parlance, so whatever conjecture is applied to its meaning is in the eyes of the beholder and should not be our concern.

Vote = Vigilance.

Again, show me the money here. I've shown I will apologize if I'm proven to be wrong in my facts.

Wait everyone - this just in - Eclipse and LordMonar have declared the "V" device to mean "Vigilance". Now we can all rest in peace.

How about, "V" for "Valor" like it was orginally designed to mean? Come on, you can't seriously be arguing that using the "V" device on the SMV is less appropriate than using it on the DRR? At least give me that much.

If anyone can shed light on the actual deliberations that resulted in the adoption of the "V" device for the DRR that would probably go a long way. I think it's a pretty fair guess looking at the evidence from latest version of CAPR 39-3 that the original device was the same bronze "V" device used by the military and that it was added to make the connection to between regular disaster service and valorous service. It was changed recently to silver in the regs because it obviously was causing some grief somewhere and needed further clarification - otherwise, why change it?

Any CAP Historians here want to chime in?

[Eclipse]

Ignore.

Continue the attack of windmills...

[OldSalt]

just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

Okay....you used the word "improved".

So let's do a little change managment.

First sell it to me.

Why should I as a CAP member with a DRR with V have to go out and buy a new ribbon with a new device?
What are the benifits to me and how do they compare to the cost?

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well. Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance. Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

You probably haven't heard any veterans complaining because when they see you wearing the "V" device in AF uniform they are assuming that you legitimately earned a medal for combat valor. The question you would probably get instead is nothing because out of respect, they wouldn't want to bother you for war stories or your combat experiences. They would just take it at face value. However, once they found out that your "V" device doesn't have anything to do with Valor or combat, they would not be happy they were intellectually duped, and would think less of your achievement the next time they saw it or anyone else in CAP uniform.

Why not just have the ribbon convey what it is universally accepted to convey in the greater military community? Why the resistance to common sense here?