Pushups = Hazing ??

Started by abysmal, March 09, 2005, 12:05:53 AM

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Pylon

Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AM
In my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups. As has been mentioned previously, it becomes like a crutch. After all, it's a lot easier to just say "DROP!" than to actually fix the problem.

Since we can't use pushups, we're forced to be creative. This requires some thought, which forces us to stop and *GASP!* think. Sometimes this may come in the form of "Has this Cadet been properly trained?" or "He seemed upset when he came in -- is this Cadet having trouble at home or school?" You know, actually thinking beyond "I need to make sure this Cadet remembers to salute me next time, and I can do this with the assistance of the front leaning rest."

It is incredibly easy to just yell at a Cadet to drop, without explaining the infraction, or how the Cadet can fix it. Since we don't have the option of PT for punishment, we are forced to (in theory) actually face the problem and gain experience working with people and solving problems.

The CAP Cadet Program is a youth development program. We aren't the Future Soldiers of America. Sure, some Cadets go on to serve in the military, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he? If we're trying to train leaders, we need to equip those young leaders with tools they can use when they leave our leadership laboratory and enter the real world.

Don't get me wrong, I've certainly faced situations when I absolutely wanted to smoke a Cadet. But since I was required by regulation to deal with those issues in another manner, I grew as a leader, and all of us grew as human beings.

Of course, your mileage may vary. :)

Wow - excellent explanation, Capt. Briski!  You hit the nail right on the head and gave perfectly laid out reasoning.  Thank you.   :)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Briski

Quote from: abysmal on March 17, 2005, 02:40:23 PM
Can you just IMAGINE the change in Walmart if a customer could walk in there and tell a poor cashier who doesn't know how to make change to "Drop, and knock out 10"!!!

Ohhhhh, the sheeeer joy of it!! <VBG>

I want to join the Super Market Elite! ;D
JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
VAWG Cadet Programs Team

...not all those who wander are lost...

abysmal

Quote from: Briski on March 18, 2005, 02:46:54 AM

I want to join the Super Market Elite! ;D

Lets hope all the time your spending in CAP will prevent that from occuring.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

flying Raptor

If you were to shedule PT everyday. Not as punishment but as to build the cadets' strength, endurence and self-confidence. If the Flt performs well that day then they only have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20. Is this hazing? The regulation says PT must be shedule for it not to be hazing. You are not punishing the cadets for poor performance, its just part of the daily shedule. If they do well then they get a reward. This PT doesn't have to be push-ups, it can be a 0.5 mile run, jumping jacks, curl-ups.

Last year at encampment 3 cadets lost their ID cards and lied about it. The staff found out about it and made the entire Flt stand with their arms out for a long period of time. I had no problem with this, I feel the Flt is a team and should be treated as a team. You win as a team and you fail as a team. I didn't see this as hazing and didn't hear any complaints from the other Flt members.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

MIKE

Read page 2 of the September 2002 Cadet Programs Today.  You'll find it in the archives.

Mike Johnston

Briski

The article(s) that 1st Lt Johnston directed you to are excellent. However, they don't come right out and say that your idea is a violation of CPP. Let's take a moment to look at the logic of your idea.

If I understand it properly, you are suggesting that (specifically in an encampment environment) a Flight Commander establish policy that at the end of the day, the flight will do, say, 20 pushups. If the Cadets work hard, do well, and function as a team, the Flight Commander may choose to reduce the amount of pushups to maybe 10. I see the point that it is a system of rewarding the Cadets by subtracting the number of pushups for performing well, instead of adding pushups as punishment for screwing up. It will, however, still be seen by the Cadets as a system of punishment. If they have to do 20 pushups at the end of the day instead of 15, they will all know that they screwed up, and that's the reason they have to do so many pushups. Sure, it's like the reverse of spontaneous PT for punishment, but it is still using pushups as a form of punishment, plain and simple.

Speaking from my own (admittedly limited) experience on Encampment Staff, you are absolutely right in that a flight needs to work as a team, but there are far better ways of encouraging teamwork. One of the ways my Flight Staff handled it last summer was that they prepared one staff member's personal area for inspection with the entire flight observing, and then they had the entire flight work together, with their guidance, on preparing the other staff member's personal area. Then the Basics were released to their rooms to help their roommates prepare for inspection, and the Flight Staff went from room to room in order to offer guidance as necessary. Halfway through the week, our squadron blew the other squadrons out of the water on room inspections, because the flights worked together as teams -- without having been hazed by their Flight Staff.

As always, your mileage may vary. Per CAPR 52-10, it shouldn't vary much...
JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
VAWG Cadet Programs Team

...not all those who wander are lost...

dwb

Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AMIn my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups.

Yup.  The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with.  I would recommend the same instructional, motivational, and correctional methods under CPP as I would if CPP did not exist.

Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.

flying Raptor

So the answer would be: no it is not hazing but the cadets Will See it as punishment, and there are different ways of motivating and disciplining?
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

arajca

Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 03:32:36 PM
If you were to shedule PT everyday. Not as punishment but as to build the cadets' strength, endurence and self-confidence. If the Flt performs well that day then they only have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20. Is this hazing? The regulation says PT must be shedule for it not to be hazing. You are not punishing the cadets for poor performance, its just part of the daily shedule. If they do well then they get a reward. This PT doesn't have to be push-ups, it can be a 0.5 mile run, jumping jacks, curl-ups.

What is the purpose of the activity? Is it to help build strength? Is it to promote and practice the correct method of doing <fill in exercise here>? Is it to allow the cadet staff to use <fill in exercise here> as a punishment/reward tool for behaviors and actions not related to the exercise?


flying Raptor

For exercise, and to motivate the cadets to better. When they know they have the option to do less push-ups by performing as a team, ect. they will do so. I know most cadets would like to do less PT. We do something like this in our HG and it works outstandingly well, but that may be b/c most of us are Academy motivated and have no problem doing PT. The more PT the better! I love PT!  :)

But thanks for your input, this really helps.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

abysmal

Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with. 
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.

I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.

Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.

For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

flying Raptor

Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PM
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with. 
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.

I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.

Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.

For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.


Yes this is the attitude I have towards PT.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

arajca

Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PM
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with. 
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.

I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.

Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.

For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.

Properly applied, you are correct. And those military instructors go through ALOT of training to make sure they know how and when to use it, and, perhaps of greater importance - when not to use it.

In CAP, the proper training was not provided, and tool was abused. As such, it became an ineffective training tool FOR CIVIL AIR PATROL. As is said around mechanical and engineering circles - "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is amazing how every problem seems to become a nail."

arajca

Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 09:42:06 PM
For exercise, and to motivate the cadets to better. When they know they have the option to do less push-ups by performing as a team, ect. they will do so. I know most cadets would like to do less PT. We do something like this in our HG and it works outstandingly well, but that may be b/c most of us are Academy motivated and have no problem doing PT. The more PT the better! I love PT!  :)

But thanks for your input, this really helps.
So you're going to punish the cadets for not performing to your expectations by making them do the full amount of pt. Unless the objective or expectation they are being 'rewarded' for is related to the exercise, you are hazing the cadets - according to CAP rules.

"If you cadets can maintain formation and keep in step today, you will only have to do 10 push ups instead of 20 tonight." Tell me exactly how the 'reward' is related to the performance. The threat of having to do the full amount of push ups is not acceptable motivation as push ups are not related to drill. Using the same example but changing the "you will only..." to "we will not have to the extra hour of drill practice tonight and you will have it as free time" is acceptable since you are rewarding the cadets aknowledging their proficiency in drill by letting them have more free time instead of practicing drill.

flying Raptor

As I explained earlier, it is a reward. It takes more than just keeping in step, you have to do an outstanding job, for doing the outstanding job they don't have to do..whatever. This is not punishment. We are not saying " Since you guys did poorly today we are going to do all of the PT". On days like that we just do regular PT without implying that they did poorly and that the PT is just part of the day and encourage them to do better. On days where the do well it would go something like this "You have done and outstanding job today,therefore you have have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20". Just like "Since you guys have performed well in drill, you don't have to practice it anymore giving you more free time."

I am on their side. I want to help them pass and give them less PT, however i need them to be on this level with me. If they aren't motivated then they won't be there.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

Yoda

Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 11:07:28 PM
As I explained earlier, it is a reward. It takes more than just keeping in step, you have to do an outstanding job, for doing the outstanding job they don't have to do..whatever. This is not punishment. We are not saying " Since you guys did poorly today we are going to do all of the PT". On days like that we just do regular PT without implying that they did poorly and that the PT is just part of the day and encourage them to do better. On days where the do well it would go something like this "You have done and outstanding job today,therefore you have have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20". Just like "Since you guys have performed well in drill, you don't have to practice it anymore giving you more free time."

I am on their side. I want to help them pass and give them less PT, however i need them to be on this level with me. If they aren't motivated then they won't be there.
No, you are saying they did a poor job because they wouldn't be doing all the PT if they hadn't.  How does PT help them do better drill?  What does pushups do for them that helps them learn better drill?

More importantly, if cadets can't do 20 pushups without difficulty, there's some issues there.  How does that help them period?

dwb

Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PMI disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.

What "arajca" said, and...

What is the purpose of basic training, Airborne school, and the like?

What is the purpose of the CAP cadet program?

Comparing military training programs to our cadet program is somewhat apples and oranges.

Military training programs require superb physical conditioning, and are preparing the individual to fight.  Sure, there are other lessons as well (core values, teamwork, etc.), but the purpose of those schools is to teach you how to be an airman/soldier/sailor/Marine, and how to operate in a combat environment.

CAP's training programs, on the other hand, are leadership laboratories for young adults that (usually) have an interest in aerospace, and who desire the military command model.

Physical punishment and/or hazing is not required, nor is it a desired option, to fulfill the goals of the cadet program.

And, of course, I echo the statements of others that the trainers in those military schools you mentioned have all undergone extensive training in their craft.  They don't use physical punishment for the sake of physical punishment, it is accompanied with reasons and an underlying lesson to learn.

When I've seen it implemented in CAP, it's always been the cadet leader wishing to abuse his subordinates, not teach them a lesson.

abysmal

You will get ZERO argument from me on the issue of Prior Propper Training of the trainer.
I could not agree more with that sentiment.

As for the complexion of the cadets, most of the cadets that I have that are "Achievers" are clearly in CAP because they plan on a military career. Which was the same reason I was a cadet back in 79. And from whats left of my aging memory, most of my fellow cadets back then were heading for the military as well.

I know for a fact that quite a few of my cadets have utterly no interest in aviation at all.
They are heading for Army, Marines and Navy.
Come to think of it, I am not sure I have a single cadet that is aiming for service in the Air Force.
But I digress..

One man's punishment, is another trainer's positive reinforcement to assuage improper actions.
I don't recall being "Punished" for doing something wrong, but being given lots of opportunities to reinforce the correct course of action.

Nevertheless I do think we ALL agree that we all need better training, and that that seems to be a major lacking area in CAP.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

flying Raptor

#58
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 20, 2005, 06:33:50 PM
Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PMI disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.

What "arajca" said, and...

What is the purpose of basic training, Airborne school, and the like?

What is the purpose of the CAP cadet program?

Comparing military training programs to our cadet program is somewhat apples and oranges.

Military training programs require superb physical conditioning, and are preparing the individual to fight.  Sure, there are other lessons as well (core values, teamwork, etc.), but the purpose of those schools is to teach you how to be an airman/soldier/sailor/Marine, and how to operate in a combat environment.

CAP's training programs, on the other hand, are leadership laboratories for young adults that (usually) have an interest in aerospace, and who desire the military command model.

Physical punishment and/or hazing is not required, nor is it a desired option, to fulfill the goals of the cadet program.

And, of course, I echo the statements of others that the trainers in those military schools you mentioned have all undergone extensive training in their craft.  They don't use physical punishment for the sake of physical punishment, it is accompanied with reasons and an underlying lesson to learn.

When I've seen it implemented in CAP, it's always been the cadet leader wishing to abuse his subordinates, not teach them a lesson.

I'm afraid I am being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actully try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

MIKE

Quote from: flying Raptor on April 21, 2005, 02:07:38 AM
I'm afraid I am to being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actully try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

As I see it, you have a predetermined number of push ups you will do for "average" performance in drill... If your cadets don't pay attention and mess up too much in drill your cadets have to do all 20 scheduled pushups... If your cadets pay attention and do well you will cut 10 push ups as a "reward" for good performance in drill... In effect it's still using the exercise as punishment because the cadets only get rewarded with less push ups if they do well... If they do poorly they will see having to do all 20 reps as punishment because of the reward factor.

I do not agree that doing push ups will teach them to pay attention during drill... Doing push ups might teach them how to do push ups, but it has no relation to drill and paying attention as doing something like knock out drill, Sgt Sez etc would during drill.

When you PT, PT to exercise and prepare for the CPFT... Don't have it be connected with some other non-related activity like drill where it will just be seen as a creative way to use exercise as punishment/corrective training.
Mike Johnston