Rank Insignia - back to the future

[JayT]

Let's leave well enough alone!

Why put people to expense of buying new insignia in this economy??

BTW, I vote for continuing to harp on NLO's comment regarding veterans, mainly because I consider (with all due respect!) that comment as "inappropriate"!

It's 'inappropriate' for a lawyer for an organization to make a comment concerning a possible legal issue regarding the organization?

[RiverAux]

It's doubtful the Air Force would consider a modification that would fundamentally alter the apparance of their uniform. The idea of the CAP uniform is "similar, but distinctive". Your suggestion does not fit.

Hmm, you might want to check the BDU and the modifications made to it for use by CAP.  For one thing having bright blue tapes, etc. with white letters, having "Civil Air Patrol" on the breast, and for many years having senior members have "CAP" on one of their collars just to name a few. All of those are pretty major changes to the AF uniform.  And for the coup d'gras, you do know that CAP cadets wear non-AF rank insignia on their uniforms and that the AF has approved it?  If they would approve it for cadets, there is no logical reason that they couldn't approve it for seniors. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

It's doubtful the Air Force would consider a modification that would fundamentally alter the apparance of their uniform. The idea of the CAP uniform is "similar, but distinctive". Your suggestion does not fit.

Hmm, you might want to check the BDU and the modifications made to it for use by CAP.  For one thing having bright blue tapes, etc. with white letters, having "Civil Air Patrol" on the breast, and for many years having senior members have "CAP" on one of their collars just to name a few. All of those are pretty major changes to the AF uniform.  And for the coup d'gras, you do know that CAP cadets wear non-AF rank insignia on their uniforms and that the AF has approved it?  If they would approve it for cadets, there is no logical reason that they couldn't approve it for seniors. 

Blue name tapes: Both CAP and the Air Force wore ultramarine blue tapes, but the Air Force moved to subdued tapes on the OG 507 fatigues, leaving CAP with the blue to create the distinction. The blue tapes carried over for us, but not for them.

Cadet grade insignia: The enlisted grade insignia looks virtually the same (save for the shield content) as AFJROTC's insignia. The officer insignia is a descendant of Army JROTC's, if I'm not mistaken. And the Air Force is a descendant of the Army.

Seniors wearing a cutout on one side of the BDU collar: Yip, this also goes back a ways, a carryover that perpetuated itself.

The Air Force didn't just decide CAP would wear all this stuff -- on the BDU, much of it has history behind it, and it's perpetuated itself. Now if we could just clean up all the silly Mickey Mouse patches, it might be more professional looking....

[JayT]

It's doubtful the Air Force would consider a modification that would fundamentally alter the apparance of their uniform. The idea of the CAP uniform is "similar, but distinctive". Your suggestion does not fit.

Hmm, you might want to check the BDU and the modifications made to it for use by CAP.  For one thing having bright blue tapes, etc. with white letters, having "Civil Air Patrol" on the breast, and for many years having senior members have "CAP" on one of their collars just to name a few. All of those are pretty major changes to the AF uniform.  And for the coup d'gras, you do know that CAP cadets wear non-AF rank insignia on their uniforms and that the AF has approved it?  If they would approve it for cadets, there is no logical reason that they couldn't approve it for seniors. 

So Air Force Academy Cadets, AFROTC Cadets, OTS Cadets, and the like aren't wearing Air Force insignia?

Also, I think you have it reversed. The Air Force was wearing white and ultramarine blue on their fatigues before CAP was.

Cadet Officer's insignia are descenden from the 'pips and crowns' British officers wore.

[Hawk200]

Cadet Officer's insignia are descenden from the 'pips and crowns' British officers wore.

British? I always heard Australian.

Learn something new every day.

[JayT]

They wear nearly identical insignia.

[Hawk200]

They wear nearly identical insignia.

Makes sense. Australia was essentially a British colony.

[RiverAux]

The fact remains that the Air Force has no problem with CAP members wearing a uniform with many differences as significant, if not more so, than the rank insignia.  So, saying that the AF wouldn't approve such a big change isn't really a sound argument against this proposal (there are others though).

[D2SK]

Change for the sake of change isn't progress.  It's wasted energy, time and money.

[ZigZag911]

Let's leave well enough alone!

Why put people to expense of buying new insignia in this economy??

BTW, I vote for continuing to harp on NLO's comment regarding veterans, mainly because I consider (with all due respect!) that comment as "inappropriate"!

It's 'inappropriate' for a lawyer for an organization to make a comment concerning a possible legal issue regarding the organization?

It struck me as a personal opinion rather than a professional one; in that light, I feel it was inappropriate.

[Short Field]

Disagreed. It's an Air Force uniform, period. And the Air Force tells CAP members how to wear it so we are recognizable as non-paid civilian volunteers.

Of course you are right.  It was just stupid of me to look in AFI 36-2903.  We need to let them know they are missing a Air Force uniform. 

[NAYBOR]

Well, what the heck, I'll bite...

The Air Force has COMPLETE control over ANY rank and rank insignia of CAP.  This is not only in AFIs, but also written into U.S. CODE specifically (as I understand it--I read it one time in the US Code authorizing CAP.  Title 10 something).  The regs say something to the effect of, "The United States Air Force maintains complete control over rank titles and insignia used by Civil Air Patrol."  If this idea were proposed (which I'm not really against because I'd love to get the gray slides off of the USAF Coat), it would absolutely have to have the approval of AF.  I bel;ieve you would therefore have to have approval of the insignia to use on BOTH the USAF and corporate uniforms.

My $0.02.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Disagreed. It's an Air Force uniform, period. And the Air Force tells CAP members how to wear it so we are recognizable as non-paid civilian volunteers.

Of course you are right.  It was just stupid of me to look in AFI 36-2903.  We need to let them know they are missing a Air Force uniform. 

The Air Force isn't missing it, Shorty. They know exactly where and what it is. It's an Air Force uniform with distinctive insignia to mark CAP members as volunteers. Heck, we don't even change the buttons anymore. (And we could only wish CAPM 39-1 was as well organized and planned as AFI 36-2903. If it was more thorough, fewer ambiguities and loopholes would remain fixed in CAP uniform culture.)

Take the gray epaulets off the service coat -- voila! -- it's an Air Force service coat with some funny ribbons and maybe some duck-bill-shaped wings on it. The metal nametag only has the last name on it -- it's an Air Force uniform item, not a CAP distinctive item. And the Air Force lets us wear it. Semantics aside, if it wasn't an Air Force uniform, would the Air Force govern it?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Take the gray epaulets off the service coat -- voila! -- it's an Air Force service coat with some funny ribbons and maybe some duck-bill-shaped wings on it. The metal nametag only has the last name on it -- it's an Air Force uniform item, not a CAP distinctive item. And the Air Force lets us wear it. Semantics aside, if it wasn't an Air Force uniform, would the Air Force govern it?

If your metal name tag only has your last name on it, it is time for a new one with Civil Air Patrol on it. The name only one lasted about 6 weeks . Guess I picked the wrong month to order

[SilverEagle2]

^^^

Uhm...no. The last name only name plate is authorized on the USAF Service dress. The Civil Air Patrol metal plate is for the CSU only and is not authorized on the USAF Service coat.

[Major Carrales]

They wear nearly identical insignia.

Makes sense. Australia was essentially a British colony.

Now they are part of the Commonwealth of Nations.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

^^^

Uhm...no. The last name only name plate is authorized on the USAF Service dress. The Civil Air Patrol metal plate is for the CSU only and is not authorized on the USAF Service coat.

I stand corrected. I was thinking the silver was a CSU only item.

[Hawk200]

I stand corrected. I was thinking the silver was a CSU only item.

Currently, there's a nameplate for the 1. Service Dress 2. CSU 3. a blue with name and CAP for the blue/whites, 4. a grey one (with name, CAP, USAF Aux) for blues and white/greys, 5. a blue one (with name, CAP, USAF Aux) for cadets in blues,  6. a black one for the blazer, and 7. one for Cadet Sponsor Members. Have I forgotten any?

Confusion is understandable. I still think we could stand to eliminate a few, there shouldn't be that many to cause the confusion in the first place.

[openmind]

Back to the original Topic, did anyone see the latest comic at SwivelChairPatrol?

link:  http://swivelchairpatrol.blogspot.com

I think he nailed the final and ultimate rank solution.  But, would we then need to call her Grand Moff Courter?


openmind

[RiverAux]

Ah, but are those ranks or ribbons?