Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Gunsotsu

Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 07:20:55 PM
There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

With nearly 10% of those all by one person.

Telling, ain't it?

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Gunsotsu on August 23, 2018, 08:24:56 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 07:20:55 PM
There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

With nearly 10% of those all by one person.

Telling, ain't it?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D >:D
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

It's a forum, we chat about things that we may not actually have time to talk about in person. (If we actually talked about it in person, the conversations would probably be pretty short. "Hey, this is an idea I have." "Hmm, that's pretty cool." "Thanks, thought I'd share.")

It's a little hobby for me personally, I follow uniforms for almost all of the seven uniformed services. Just something else I do.

I do safety for the Guard, but the nature of the safety I do there probably doesn't even have more than about ten percent overlap (if that) with CAP. I'd discuss, but the nature of it is different. That's why I don't dip into that page that often.

I like the discussion here, I learn of what would interests other people have, and I've changed my mind on a few things. OCPs are the newest "thing," so it's cool to see some ideas on them, even if we might never see them.

supertigerCH

Hi LSThinker,

You are very correct about the proportion (and %) of messages (postings) regarding uniforms... in the different parts of CAPTALK.  No worries my friend, I realize that you were saying a lot that with a bit of humor (in order to make a point)  :).

From reading many of your past postings, you seem a pretty easygoing person.

You are just pointing out something that we all know is true... that people use a huge part of CAPTALK to talk about uniform issues.  Yet, for some reason... all of us continue to keep coming back, reading, and posting in here again anyway... lol.   ;D

Okayish Aviator

So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021. That means the AF (April 2021) and Army (Wearout date for everyone to be in an OCP uniform is 30 September 2019) will be complete with their transitions and the old uniforms will be off shelves at AAFES by then except at secondary sales like Propper (if they decided to continue the pattern with little to no demand besides CAP). We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter.

I wouldn't mind any feedback on the language. It's largely a merger between the 39-1 and the USAF wear instructions.

Operational Camouflage Pattern-CAP:

4.1. OCP Coat (Shirt). The coat is worn outside the trousers. The coat will not extend below the top of the cargo pocket on the trousers and will not be higher than the bottom of the opening of the side pocket on the trousers. Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the OCP coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. [Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times. Patches or badges will not be affixed to the front pockets. Alterations that affect the functionality of the uniform are not authorized, e.g. sewing down collars, or pockets. The OCP coat may be removed in the immediate work area as determined appropriate by local leadership, however, the OCP coat will be worn while interacting with Civil Air Patrol's customers/clients.]

4.1.1. Accoutrements. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing for 'Civil Air Patrol' tape, name tape, and rank. Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only Velcro patches are authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.]

4.1.1.1. Rank Insignia is mandatory for all personnel. For CAP Cadet Airmen Basics or Senior members with no rank, a blank, Navy blue CAP Velcro tab shall be worn.

4.1.1.1.1 Officer rank insignia will silver; Second Lieutenant and Major rank insignia will be Gold.

4.1.1.1.2. Enlisted rank will be silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.3. Cadet Officer rank will be Silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.4 Cadet Enlisted rank will be metal pinned rank on a blank Navy Velcro tab with rank placed centered horizontally and vertically.

4.1.2. Name and 'Civil Air Patrol' tapes are mandatory for all personnel wearing this uniform.

4.1.2.1. Name and CAP tapes embroidery will be silver on Navy Blue tape. Name and CAP tapes may be sewn on or affixed with Velcro; however the sewn tapes must maintain a consistent horizontal length to the Velcro affixed tapes.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the "Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge. Chaplain and CAP aviation badges are mandatory and will always be worn in the highest position. Not more than a combined total of two of these badges will be worn on the wearer's left. When more than one CAP aviation badge is authorized, only one will be worn. If a military aviation badge (aeronautical, space or cyberspace) is worn, it will be worn in the second position. If chaplain badge is worn, it is worn in the higher position. Parachutist wings are optional; however, when worn will be placed above an occupational badge or below a chaplain, aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge. Occupational badges (excluding chaplain) are optional. All light silver on dark blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia.

4.1.3.1. Chaplain Badge will be worn ½ inch above aeronautical, space or cyberspace badge (if authorized) or ½ inch above the 'Civil Air Patrol' tape. 

4.1.4. Badges and Commander's Insignia Pin (Group and Unit Commanders). Wear of this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the nametape over the right pocket.

4.1.5. Sleeve Patches. A total of two patches as authorized by Attachment 4 may be worn on the sleeves of the CAP-OCP uniform. [For exception see 4.4.4.2.3.]

4.1.5.1. One full color patch as authorized by Attachment 4 may be affixed with Velcro to the left sleeve centered on the OCP shirt. Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area.

4.1.5.2. Organizational unit of assignment patches may be worn on the right sleeve.  Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area unless authorized functional badges or joint qualification tabs are worn.

[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

4.1.5.5. No other types of patches are authorized on the left sleeve.

4.1.6. T-Shirt. T-Shirt will be Desert Sand or Tan and will be tucked into OCP trousers.

4.2. OCP Trouser. The OCP trousers are worn buttoned and with a belt. Members may wear the trousers tucked into the top of the boots or bloused using the drawstrings at the bottom of the trousers, or commercial blousing devices if the trousers are not tucked into the boots. Members will not wrap the trouser leg around the leg tightly enough to present a pegged appearance or insert any items inside the trouser leg to create a round appearance at the bottom of the trouser leg. When bloused, the trousers will not extend below the third eyelet from the top of the boot.

4.2.1. Belt. A one piece Tan or Sand, nylon, web belt will be worn with OCP trousers [Exception: maternity trousers]. Belt may extend past buckle.

4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

4.2.2.1. Socks. Socks may be Desert Sand, Tan or Black. No logos may be visible when worn.


4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated "no hat" area. Members will wear the patrol cap straight on the head so that the cap band creates a straight line around the head, parallel to the ground. The patrol cap will fit snugly and comfortably around the largest part of the head without bulging or distortion from the intended shape of the headgear and without excessive gaps. The cap is worn so that no hair is visible on the forehead beneath the cap. (Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap. Chaplains may wear the chaplain occupational badge sewn-on and centered ½ inch above visor. When wearing OCP cap, cadet officers wear regular size, full color rank on Navy blue backing, centered with 1/8 inch border around the insignia.

4.4. Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments. With the exception of functional items, cold weather accessories are only worn while outdoors. Authorized cold weather accessories for the OCP are:

4.4.1. Coyote Brown or black scarves, earmuffs, black watch caps and black or coyote gloves.

4.4.2. Coyote Brown fleece may be worn indoors. When worn indoors, it should be worn over the OCP shirt.

4.4.3. The Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS) jackets (fleece, wind, soft shell, wet weather, or extreme cold weather) may be worn without the pants; however, the pants must not be worn without the jacket. Multicam ECWCS may be worn if OCP is not available.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


etodd

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM

4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated "no hat" area.


Headgear will now be a requirement? I've never worn one before.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Gunsotsu

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

No and no. We don't deploy, no need for the shoot-me patch. And as to the rest of those, they have no CAP equivalent, they have no need on a CAP uniform. I feel the same about dirt dart wings, we don't kick cadets out the door and let them float to earn under grannies bloomers.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: etodd on August 24, 2018, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM

4.3. Headgear. Headgear will be worn outdoors at all times, unless in a designated "no hat" area.


Headgear will now be a requirement? I've never worn one before.

Wearing a cover in USAF style uniforms while outdoors (and not in a no hat area like a flightline) has always been a thing. Keep in mind this is only for the OCP as described. None of this is in regards to any other uniform combination. I could probably make that more clear in the wording.

Quote from: Gunsotsu on August 24, 2018, 04:15:20 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

No and no. We don't deploy, no need for the shoot-me patch. And as to the rest of those, they have no CAP equivalent, they have no need on a CAP uniform. I feel the same about dirt dart wings, we don't kick cadets out the door and let them float to earn under grannies bloomers.

I appreciate the feedback. As for the US or joint qualification tabs, they've been something that's been possible on the CAP USAF style uniform for a while, so I saw no reason to remove them for this iteration. No, there aren't CAP equivalents, but the USAF among other branches have always honored the wear of items earned through other branches training. Why would we not do the same for a USAF style equivalent? Of course in corporates none of this is relevant.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


jeders

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021. That means the AF (April 2021) and Army (Wearout date for everyone to be in an OCP uniform is 30 September 2019) will be complete with their transitions and the old uniforms will be off shelves at AAFES by then except at secondary sales like Propper (if they decided to continue the pattern with little to no demand besides CAP). We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter.

I think this timeline makes sense; though I would probably authorize them for wear the day after BDUs are phased out (or extend the BDU phase out period until the start of the OCP phase in period).

Quote
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

Please no, we just got rid of it and, as we only ever operate in the US, there's really no reason to have it unless the Army/Air Force say we have to.

Quote4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?

Quote4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

Personally, I think that we should authorize tan boots and t-shirts for every utility uniform, including corporate, so as to cut down on the supply issues.

Quote(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

xyzzy

Extend use of BDU field jacket , Gortex BDU jacket, (all in Woodland pattern and Gortex Parka (ABU or Woodland pattern) until final phase-out of ABU. Allow OCP outerwear with Woodland and ABU "jacket" (that is, shirt) and trousers. Two sets of uniform outerwear (one for utility uniforms, another for dressier uniforms) is a lot to ask for volunteers; three or four sets is just too much.

A general principle should be for the uniform committee to avoid guessing in which order members will find good deals on, or be given, outerwear vs. jackets & trousers.

N6RVT

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the "Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge.
These two paragraphs in conjunction do not make it clear about mixing sew on and velcro, at least in regards to badges.

I notice you don't say the first badge needs to be centered.  Kudos if that was intentional - because if they were, the upper badge would never be visible under the collar.  Even so, the design of the uniform is not really amenable to wearing these at all.

N6RVT

Quote from: Eclipse on August 23, 2018, 07:37:29 PM
The simple reason for this is that the multiform is a mess, going back a couple of decades.

Poor examples of proper wear by leadership at pretty much every level.

Remember the national recruiting video where the pilot gets out of the plane wearing blue jeans & brown loafers with the polo shirt?

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: xyzzy on August 24, 2018, 05:45:49 PM
Extend use of BDU field jacket , Gortex BDU jacket, (all in Woodland pattern and Gortex Parka (ABU or Woodland pattern) until final phase-out of ABU. Allow OCP outerwear with Woodland and ABU "jacket" (that is, shirt) and trousers. Two sets of uniform outerwear (one for utility uniforms, another for dressier uniforms) is a lot to ask for volunteers; three or four sets is just too much.

A general principle should be for the uniform committee to avoid guessing in which order members will find good deals on, or be given, outerwear vs. jackets & trousers.

By the time this would be implemented, the Woodland BDU would have already been phased completely out. Why would we allow it to go back in for a transition to OCP? You're asking for a true soup sandwich if we did that and nobody will be wearing BDU's by that time either. Multicam is one of the easiest and cheapest to find color/patterns available out there now. I think if we allowed that if OCP is not available, the outerwear issue wouldn't be too big a deal.

The key is to make sure the wear instructions would go out in sufficient enough time that everyone knows its' coming. That'd give many time to prepare prior to wearing any OCP uniform...

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on August 24, 2018, 06:21:00 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

4.1.2.2. Badges and Insignia. All badges and insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. CAP members may sew-on or use Velcro backing. Badges must be either all sewn-on or all Velcro; Members are not authorized to mix sew-on and Velcro tapes or rank.

4.1.3. Aviation and Occupational Badges. Two Aviation or Occupational badges embroidered in silver on dark blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the "Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch above the first badge.
These two paragraphs in conjunction do not make it clear about mixing sew on and velcro, at least in regards to badges.

I notice you don't say the first badge needs to be centered.  Kudos if that was intentional - because if they were, the upper badge would never be visible under the collar.  Even so, the design of the uniform is not really amenable to wearing these at all.

I'm looking into this a bit more, I've seen some options that may solve this problem. I'm not sure if the below are full size or mini's, although the guys at Vanguard have told me they are full size. Maybe something like this as an option.


Edit: Better image.

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


xyzzy

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
So, here are my thoughts so far along with a short draft based on what we've discussed. This would be an addendum to the new uniform manual.

Say we start the transition Aug 1 2021.... We make it a 4 year phase in ending Aug 31 2025. For the majority of cadets or short time members, it won't matter....

First, explicitly allowing ECWCS is good (although it is more restrictive than the de facto situation; no one goes out in -20 degree F weather in what's currently allowed, so the current situation is anything goes).

An approximate time line for northern hemisphere outerwear above and beyond the green foliage or coyote fleece (which I understand to be part of ECWCS).

Last time to wear ABU patterned outerwear: March 2021. Assuming it was purchased the beginning of the season, last probable purchase date December 2020.

First occasion to wear whatever the airman chooses to replace ABU outerwear: November 2021.

Last occasion to wear ABU pattern outerwear: March 2025.

Time between last probable purchase and last wear of ABU pattern outerwear: December 2020 to March 2025 = 4 years 3 months.

SCE124

4.2.2 Boots. Black combat boots with smooth or scotch grained leather shall be worn. Roughed out black leather is not authorized. Polishing of boots is optional. [ALTERNATE] 4.2.2. Boots. Coyote Tan combat boots will be worn.

I think we could honestly get into the Coyote Brown/Tan boots without much fuss! I know that Walmart & Rothco both make Coyote Brown boots for $40-60, plus there are others available on Amazon for under $100. Not to mention that at my unit we have a uniform donation box on our local Air Force base, I've collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued! When the donation box was established during the Air Force's BDU days we used to see a large donation of Black boots as well. No doubt in my mind this trend will continue with Air Force OCPs & Coyote Brown boots. Remember along with the Air Force, the Army, Navy & USMC (not sure if the Marines still have the Eagle/Globe/Anchor on their boots) all wear Coyote Brown/tan, so the supply will be there for both new and used boots; more so than the Sage Green Boots for sure!

And to speak about the FDU for just one second... I don't think the green flightsuit would look terrible with Tan T-Shirt & Coyote Tan boots ( Actually might help keep your feet slightly less sweaty on a hot/sunny flightline). These are just my opinions however!

So far DocJekyll I really like what you've put together, everything looks great!!! Keep it up and HOPEFULLY NHQ will follow your recommendations!

Eclipse

Quote from: SCE124 on August 24, 2018, 07:29:44 PMve collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued!

Why are you collecting uniform items you can't use or wear?

"That Others May Zoom"

SCE124

Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2018, 07:35:26 PM
Quote from: SCE124 on August 24, 2018, 07:29:44 PMve collected well over two dozen boots from AF personnel that still have soles left and are very serviceable (except for maybe some new insoles) ... the only problem is they are Sage Green, so can't be issued!

Why are you collecting uniform items you can't use or wear?

It's a dropbox in a base office, no one mans the box. We collect the items in there once a week or so. We have a list posted above the box as to what we are looking for, but things end up there anyways! We've discovered Desert Tan flightsuits, desert tan boots, Army ACUs, even some OCPs (Army) all inside our dropbox. Sometimes it can be comical as to what we find in there!

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

SCE124

Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2018, 07:47:32 PM
What do you do with the stuff you can't use?

Depending on what it is they end up getting donated to a local Army Navy thrift store or local shelters for the homeless. Other times we put the items out on a meeting night and anyone can collect them to be used for yard-work/landscaping, painting, paintball/airsoft, etc. In either case, the insignias/tapes/patches are removed for the uniforms prior to being discarded.

However, more often than not the uniforms we find in the box are serviceable Air Force style that are authorized by CAP. It really works out well and we've had excellent support from the local airbase leadership regarding it!