Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Jester

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 05:11:11 PM
So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors.

? This is about fancy clothes, not ICS identifiers, per se.

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.

I have never been to any mission, no mater the scale, where I couldn't figure out, quickly,
who was doing what, and generally the only missions using vests and other accouterments are evals.

The rest go off with uniforms, which include a lot of screened golf shirts that don't even have names on them.


"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteFrom Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.




Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 08:53:07 PM
QuoteFrom Eclipse

Having "visitors" in an ICP isn't a thing, they either have a job, or they are escorted by a PA / MSA.


I never meant a "visitor" as you state. I was referring to the multitude of people working at a command post that is coordinating an event. The IS classes show event staff using vests stating what their position is. So now you are stating that "CAP not wear those things." CAP members not following what others are doing at such an event will make them stick out.

What "others"?

The vast majority of CAP ES activities don't even have an ICP, per se, those that do, the vast majority of them
is CAP personnel only.

If CAP is involved in a larger-scale activity where they are integrated into another agency's ICP, then it's on that agency to
provide the identifying garments or badges, not CAP to bring their own.

In that case, a CAP-IC would not be "the" IC, and they would not wear the "of record" vest / whatever anyway.

Back in the CAP real world, there should not be randos walking around trying to figure out who is doing what
based soley on a vest or badge.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Jester on August 18, 2018, 06:55:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

::)

How dare the Air Force not subjugate themselves to the Army for the first time in forever?  Get over yourself. 

The people that need them, get them.  Both branches are on two different timelines for transitioning.

Not sure why you think that kind of response is appropriate.

The Army created the uniform, the Air Force decided to adopt the Army uniform later. It's pretty reasonable that soldiers should be outfitted first. The late comers should have to wait.

Quote from: arajca on August 18, 2018, 05:32:43 PM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.

Quote from: supertigerCH on August 18, 2018, 06:13:31 PM
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.

arajca

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 19, 2018, 11:52:14 AM
Quote from: arajca on August 18, 2018, 05:32:43 PM
Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

True, but that's easily changed. I'm not talking about something like what Eclipse shared, I think those are definitely on the "loud" side.

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/army-patch-cbrn-letters-embroidered-on-ocp

Thinking something like that, just in a non subdued color that's not extreme.  It's basically a patch that goes on the upper left arm.
Can it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

Quote
Quote from: supertigerCH on August 18, 2018, 06:13:31 PM
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

Hawk200

Quote from: arajca on August 19, 2018, 02:21:42 PMCan it be changed? Sure. Easily? I'm not so sure, given how long these things take.

It could be, especially if there's a rewrite (and re-numbering) due on the uniform pub. Don't know if they really need to illustrate every single brassard, maybe show a couple and then list the additional ones authorized.

Quote from: arajca on August 19, 2018, 02:21:42 PM
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

I think I remember that. Don't remember specifics. You had posted about it here, right?

I think that might be even better than a patch. We could stick Goofy in the middle of a badge, maintain some history. (I'm only joking. I would consider it though, if there was enough interest.)

Still got those drawings? I don't remember off hand what they looked like.

supertigerCH

Quote
Quote
Quote from: supertigerCH on August 18, 2018, 06:13:31 PM
good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.

It's got history, but in the interest of moving forward, may be it's not such a bad idea to let it go. Apparently, there is more aversion to it than I'm aware of. Not to mention, it's just one less thing to worry about. Don't have to worry about where it goes if you eliminate it.
Well, a couple years ago I submitted a proposal for an ES qualification badge. Three levels based on where each qualification was on the ICS chart. Included was verbage that the member could wear the ES qualification badge or the ES patch, but not both. Nothing has been heard since.

When it comes to the service & field uniforms worn by the military and most other agencies nowdays... an ES badge does seem to be much more appropriate.

Or here's an idea... if the powers at be (and members) still desire it to be some type of patch... then just create a more modern/updated patch that looks more professional.


supertigerCH

That being said... the goofy/pluto patch could still be sold & encouraged as an informal patch... for CAP members to wear on other (non-uniform) clothing (jackets, etc)... then the history of the patch would be allowed to live on (even if in a more informal way).

(yes I do believe history "has it's place"... and it's more than fine if people want to preserve & remember heritage in some way). 

Hawk200

Quote from: supertigerCH on August 19, 2018, 09:38:53 PM
That being said... the goofy/pluto patch could still be sold & encouraged as an informal patch... for CAP members to wear on other (non-uniform) clothing (jackets, etc)... then the history of the patch would be allowed to live on (even if in a more informal way).

(yes I do believe history "has it's place"... and it's more than fine if people want to preserve & remember heritage in some way).

Or maybe just change it out for an ES badge, let it die.

A timeline that comes to mind is that it gets phased out, treated as a novelty patch, and then a decade down the road someone says "Hey, you know what would be cool? If we could wear that Emergency Services patch on our uniforms like they used to in the old days."

If we're going to eliminate something, then let's eliminate it. I always liked the Pluto patch, but it would probably be easier to ditch it altogether.

And, in a completely hypothetical situation, we wouldn't have to consider placement on, say, a new uniform.  ;D

Starbird

Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Roger that.

Sounds like we must be a paramilitary organization...


Quote from: Hawk200 on August 23, 2018, 10:52:16 AM
A timeline that comes to mind is that it gets phased out, treated as a novelty patch, and then a decade down the road someone says "Hey, you know what would be cool? If we could wear that Emergency Services patch on our uniforms like they used to in the old days."

If we're going to eliminate something, then let's eliminate it.

^ Cropped for relevant parts

How many times have uniform discussions been stirred up because someone like the appearance of an old uniform, or they want the nostalgia back?

It's absurd really. The Air Force talking about shifting to a new service dress uniform rehashed that old chat ("Heritage"). It's not much different than the guys who want to see the Army wear the old 'pinks and greens.' For what reason other than "that's what the real soldiers wore in World War II?" Who...the...heck...cares?

Learn from the past (training), sure. But don't live in the past.

We focus on so much frivolous stuff.

LSThiker

Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


N6RVT

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on August 23, 2018, 05:02:22 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.

Could be due to the collective user group on the internet, who may also be typing up a response while pulling up the CAP Uniform Manual right then and there....or the lack of individuals out in the world who don't bother to check up on the manual from time to time, thus, forgetting its contents.

I'm in it constantly, and every time, it's like I've learned something new. The same goes for Cadet Programs regulations, and a number of other areas.

Most uniform topics are people griping about what they don't like what someone did (without enforcing the correction), or they don't like the way something is in the manual.

supertigerCH

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on August 23, 2018, 05:02:22 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 23, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on August 23, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Starbird on August 23, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
Lol.  The only thing I am getting from this thread is that we seem to care more about the uniforms we wear than the missions/jobs we fulfill whilst wearing said uniform.  Seems a bit backwards...

Welcome to CAPTalk  >:D

There are other areas of discussion on this forum, it just so happens that this area is the one for uniforms. I know we all don't really spend this much time on the whole uniform debate in our own units.

After reading that I realized I have never had a uniform discussion like this in person.  Occasionally we talk about what the reg does or does not say - but never what we think it SHOULD say.  That seems to be internet only.


I'm totally with you guys here... I have never in all my years of CAP membership... had or heard uniform conversations in person -- the way it is talked about online (in CAPTALK).  This is probably a good thing, and means that it's much more of an ideas sharing / debate that happens when people are wasting time online.

Also, very much agree that if people are so bothered by this topic... then why do they spend their time in the Uniforms & Awards section of CAPTALK?  There are dozens (if not hundreds) of other topics in CAPTALK that they can click into... and not have to read a single thing about it (or can even start their own topics).

Now, having said all that... I could honestly wear a bright *fluorescent red* jumpsuit -- and a beenie hat with a propeller on top... as my uniform.  I honestly couldn't care less.  I spent enough years in uniform (like many others in CAP)... and honestly the starry-eyed excitement of dressing up that so many people have... just doesn't exist for me.  I would much rather just show up for work in my pajamas.

LSThiker

While my reply was really meant as a tongue-in-check, I will put this out there:

There are approximately 398,000 posts on CAPTalk (398,383 at the time of me typing, which will be off as soon as I post)*.
*I did not count the forum support posts.

Uniforms & Awards accounts for 105,001 posts.  That means, that the uniform section receives 26% of the total number of posts.  Also, if we average the number of replies per post, then we see that the Uniform section gets an average of 31 posts per topic. 

To put everything into perspective:
Cadet Programs (as a whole) has 42,039 posts, or 10% of posts, with an average of 16 replies per topic. 
ES/Ops/Aviation (as a whole) has 61,737 posts, or 15% of posts, with an average of 16 replies per topic. 
Aerospace has 4,680 posts, or a whopping 1% of posts, with an average of 8 replies per topic. 

The lobby has the only competition to the Uniforms section, which the lobby also has a number of uniform topics:  103,449 posts, or 26%, with an average of 22 replies per topic. 

Again, a number of topics in these subsections have a tendency to get side tracked into uniform discussions, which are obviously not accounted for in this very elementary analysis.  Further, this does not account for the quick 2 word corrections that happen.  Of course, the lobby does have a group of different topics that fall into all different subsections, such as CP, ES, and AE.  However, this still demonstrates the point that Uniforms are discussed most often on CAPTalk, at nearly 1.7 to 22X more than our core CAP missions. 

It would be interesting to see how many Facebook groups fall into uniform discussions, but that would depend on a number of factors--such as what group as some are just meme driven while others are professionally driven. 

So Starbird is not entirely off with his/her statement, even if it is in the "Uniforms & Awards" subsection of CAPTalk.  To be honest, I am starting to become more in line with etodd with just wearing polos and, maybe, corporate whites for senior members.   

Anyway, my $0.02, which you can all discuss to great lengths. 

Eclipse

The simple reason for this is that the multiform is a mess, going back a couple of decades.

     The regs are a mess.

     There is inconsistent (at best) enforcement of "standards".

     Poor examples of proper wear by leadership at pretty much every level.

And plenty of homegrown wives tales and made-up local rules, owing in large part to the above.
Not to mention any number of wings and activities which have seen fit to request waivers,
special clothing items, or insignia outside the norms of the "standard" uniform.

The CP, ES, and AE, as programs in themselves, CP, especially, don't have nearly the ambiguity or
lack of enforcement of standards, at least on the mean, as does the multiform, however the
multiform is the most visible aspect of membership, and one which the members have
the financial burden of carrying.

Regulations and wear instructions are trickled out in ways that conflict with themselves internally,
violate other regulations, or which don't make logical sense, and owing to the inconsistent
experience and training of Unit CCs and staff lend themselves to confusion, at a minimum,
and worse when personalities with agendas are added to the mix.

For example, and as mentioned here a number of times, there is currently no properly published
authorization for the wear of ABUs whatsoever
.  Members following only the regs will not find
a trail of documents that authorizes it as a CAP uniform.

It is also "interesting" to note that NHQ saw fit to incorporate an ICL into 39-1 for the purpose
of getting out the AFOEA (despite the regs prohibiting ICLs for things like that), but 4+ years after it was
published (including many typos, incorrect images, and missing items that were corrected in the public comments
and ignored) it still doesn't include the ABU, which is now on a ramp to sundown by Big Blue.

It there any wonder C/AB's mom is lost?


"That Others May Zoom"

Okayish Aviator

I think I agree with Eclipse, added:

When you remove the crazy number of questions about uniforms that could actually be answered by just reading what we have out there already, that number would likely fall more in line with the other topics.

I think we're probably overstating the issue because like I said (and others have confirmed) we don't really speak to uniform changes near as often as we talk the actual mission in person, it's just that this is the forum for us to discuss it. But that being said,

We can work toward a homogenous and comprehensive uniform manual and regulation, and having a lot of eyes on it that can point out errors and inconsistencies can be a huge benefit.

I think I've gotten together a basis for a uniform change memorandum, along with timeline etc. Of course it's all going to be up in the air but for those of us that are and have been in cap a while, we'll eventually see change because that's normal for any org. Anybody who remembers the dark days before that Jul2005-Oct 2007 know what I mean... lots of change.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.