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Started by MadGrak, September 15, 2011, 05:14:12 AM

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Luis R. Ramos

#120
A flightsuit is a pretty [Filter Subversion] uniform to use as a ground team...

You cannot remove the top during a rest, or when it gets sweltering hot...

And if the call of "nature" hits...

Rethink that...

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: flyer333555 on November 24, 2012, 04:21:56 AM
A flightsuit is a pretty [Filter Subversion] uniform to use as a ground team...

You cannot remove the top during a rest, or when it gets sweltering hot...

And if the call of "nature" hits...

Rethink that...

Flyer


Did we run out of humor today Flyer? :o

AirDX

Quote from: Fubar on November 23, 2012, 09:12:28 PM

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

+1.

Telling members they need to buy a uniform they may never wear is not a way to impress anyone with our organization.  I have just over four years back in CAP now, and I have worn the polo pretty much exclusively.  I bought a white aviator combo about a year and a half ago, on the theory that I should have something a little nicer to wear if I ever needed it.  I've worn it exactly once, to a meeting at which it was not required and where I was about the only one not wearing a polo or a flight suit.  I'll be buying new slides for major before I wear it again, and promotion is still about 6 months off. 

It's a nonsensical requirement, a nonsensical reg, and it's essentially unenforceable. 
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

LGM30GMCC

Quote from: AirDX on November 24, 2012, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: Fubar on November 23, 2012, 09:12:28 PM

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

+1.

Telling members they need to buy a uniform they may never wear is not a way to impress anyone with our organization.  I have just over four years back in CAP now, and I have worn the polo pretty much exclusively.  I bought a white aviator combo about a year and a half ago, on the theory that I should have something a little nicer to wear if I ever needed it.  I've worn it exactly once, to a meeting at which it was not required and where I was about the only one not wearing a polo or a flight suit.  I'll be buying new slides for major before I wear it again, and promotion is still about 6 months off. 

It's a nonsensical requirement, a nonsensical reg, and it's essentially unenforceable.

That's a cultural issue, not a regulatory one. It would be perfectly reasonable for a unit commander to say 'The basic uniform is the  grey/whites or AF blues so our weekly UOD is that.' Most unit commanders don't do that and are happy to have people in any uniform. But from what I've seen from 3 regions, 6 wings, and at least 10-12 squadrons is a lackadaisical approach to many aspects of CAP. Usually in the planning/support side, especially among senior members. An attitude that if it isn't flying, or directly cadet programs it doesn't matter.

From the largest squadrons I've visited to the smallest I hear the same things: "I haven't really gotten trained" "Professional Development isn't important" "I only did PD because my commander made me" "All I have to do is wear the polo"

These all point to the overriding cultural problem in CAP that 'we're just volunteers.' We are not 'just volunteers' we are expected to be unpaid professionals; more like a volunteer fire department or EMS, not like the folks working a church rummage sale. To shift this culture will take effort from the top down. NHQ has been doing a good job pushing this with things like increased training, requirements, and accountability. But, as we see here, there has been a lot of push-back from 'the field.' I think some of this comes from the culture of each squadron being their own island. Yes, groups, wings and above are there to support the squadrons as they carry out their mission; but the squadrons exist to carry out the mission as set out by higher headquarters and public law. 

As to it being a nonsensical requirement, that's because you have only interacted with outside folks that haven't verbally looked down on the polo. The regulation, sensibly, sets forth a minimum standard. It may be a higher standard than what you like, but that's your problem, not a problem with the regulation or the headquarters setting it. The 'Polo-only, Polo-always' crowd may be tolerated in some places, but that's the culture they were brought in to. If we didn't accept that culture, I bet it would slowly weed itself out over time. As for being unenforceable? Hardly. Just a matter of commanders being willing to take the hit.

If we, as leaders, want to change the culture we simply have to stop making the polo shirt quite as accepted and make the wearing of gray/whites or blues the norm. If every PD course required the wear of the minimum standard uniform, and units did as well, I'm betting we would see Polo's relegated to mission base work and flying operations. Which really, is what it is best suited for anyway. And as was pointed out, the cost difference between a polo (especially a personalized one) and the gray/white combo is fairly minimal.

Luis R. Ramos

No, PH, that post was supposed to be a real post to Angel Wings, who suggested that all wear flight suits. If you think I was being funny, why didn't you direct a similar message to Angel?

And if it your answer was because of the filtered portion of my message, I just wrote the first and last letter, not the entire word. The filter seems to have outsmarted me.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Luis R. Ramos

LGM,

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The same attitude that is taken when commanders state "That regulation has not been updated in 5 years... in 10 years... Oh well, the intention of it was ... so we will allow XYZ."

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: AirDX on November 24, 2012, 11:03:34 AM
It's a nonsensical requirement, a nonsensical reg, and it's essentially unenforceable.

A bit like the "low-light/at-a-distance" dictum that ensures anything on a CAP uniform must be dull and colourless?

It is a cultural issue, though.

I've mentioned serving in my first squadron, a composite squadron where everyone wore the AF uniform and uniform standards, C&C's, etc. were enforced.  Then, after six years, I left that unit (due to getting married and moving) and joined a senior squadron where the opposite was true.  I showed up on my first night there and made sure my blues were clean, pressed and within regs...something about wanting to make a good first impression.  Instead, I ended up in a room full of pilots wearing flight suits (some without any insignia) and polo/golf shirts (some with grey slacks, others with whatever trousers they had on at the time).  One member said to me, "why shell out for all that to play Air Force when it's a lot cheaper to just get a golf shirt?"

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
An attitude that if it isn't flying, or directly cadet programs it doesn't matter.

The unit I mentioned didn't want anything to do with CP...including giving cadets O-rides.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
As to it being a nonsensical requirement, that's because you have only interacted with outside folks that haven't verbally looked down on the polo.

That's news to me.  Increasingly, especially in the last 10-15 years, I've seen the attitude that "uniforms other than the polo shirt are just for cadets" spreading throughout CAP.

I've even noted some disdain for the grey/white kit...again, it's "why get that when a polo is all I need?"

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
If we, as leaders, want to change the culture we simply have to stop making the polo shirt quite as accepted and make the wearing of gray/whites or blues the norm.

I agree 1000% but good luck on that one.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
If every PD course required the wear of the minimum standard uniform, and units did as well, I'm betting we would see Polo's relegated to mission base work and flying operations.

Or you would have what I've seen...those who don't care about PD anyway (second lieutenants for life) and just want to fly, so it wouldn't affect them, and others who would take their toys and leave.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM
And as was pointed out, the cost difference between a polo (especially a personalized one) and the gray/white combo is fairly minimal.

True enough.  But there are (too many of) those in CAP who "just can't be bothered" even with the required accoutrements on the white shirt.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Smokey

Just be glad you are not in California Wing....Ground teams must wear the Ground Team Uniform (NOT BDU's) when on a mission or training.
CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
((a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) CAP Blue Field Uniform trousers.
The following insignia and patches must be worn.
(a) Blue Civil Air Patrol tape – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the right shirt pocket (only the
last name is used).
(c) California Wing patch – cloth: is worn placed 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left
sleeve.
(d) OES/Cal EMA Search and Rescue patch: is worn placed 1/2 inch below the shoulder seam on
the right sleeve.

BUT this uniform CANNOT be worn at the mission base.
The CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Base Staff or Aircrew functions at any time.
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a
search base in an out of service status
SO....You have to change from BDU on base, then to GT uniform to search, then back to BDU when back at base.
Tell me that isn't the definition of insanity!!!!!!!
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

abdsp51

In my last unit we had a schedule for uniform wear and it was basically blues for the first meeting and BDUs the rest for cadets.  Now most of the seniors wore the polo shirt, but you can best believe that on that first Mon everyone was in blues or the appropriate equivalent.  For activities again everyone was in the required uniform and if you weren't then you really didn't play. 

Commanders who say just buy the polo to new members do themselves and the member a disservice by construing this as the minimum required uniform.  Now I own two polo shirts and I hate wearing them, they have their purpose in being a quick uniform to throw on especially on those days when I have worked late or there was a twist in the schedule.  Outside of that unless it is directed it stays in the closet.  Hell I have seen so many different pants and shoes worn with it that it's something that you have to scratch your head on. 

My personal opinion is that those directly involved with cadet programs need to be in the same uniform as cadets, to help in creating better unit cohesion. 

But on ABUs lets allow the leadership in Bama do their thing and await the response from the powers to be. 

PHall

Quote from: Smokey on November 24, 2012, 05:27:04 PM
Just be glad you are not in California Wing....Ground teams must wear the Ground Team Uniform (NOT BDU's) when on a mission or training.
CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
((a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) CAP Blue Field Uniform trousers.
The following insignia and patches must be worn.
(a) Blue Civil Air Patrol tape – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the right shirt pocket (only the
last name is used).
(c) California Wing patch – cloth: is worn placed 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left
sleeve.
(d) OES/Cal EMA Search and Rescue patch: is worn placed 1/2 inch below the shoulder seam on
the right sleeve.

BUT this uniform CANNOT be worn at the mission base.
The CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Base Staff or Aircrew functions at any time.
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a
search base in an out of service status
SO....You have to change from BDU on base, then to GT uniform to search, then back to BDU when back at base.
Tell me that isn't the definition of insanity!!!!!!!

So you have to change your blouse when you depart and return to the search base. Not exactly a hardship.

manfredvonrichthofen

No, but it is the most hideous thing I've ever heard of. Why in the world that came about will never be understood.

SARDOC

Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2012, 07:13:16 PM
So you have to change your blouse when you depart and return to the search base. Not exactly a hardship.

I agree...I don't think changing shirts is a hardship.  I think it is a ridiculous rule...but not a hardship.  If that's a hardship you're too soft.

Wear a black tee shirt underneath it and just take off the Orange shirt and replace with the BBDU Blouse.  Done.

abdsp51

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on November 24, 2012, 07:29:03 PM
No, but it is the most hideous thing I've ever heard of. Why in the world that came about will never be understood.

Becausew Ca Wg wants to play in ES and took the "strong recommendation" from CaEMA as the gospel truth and as state law. 

Garibaldi

Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2012, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: Smokey on November 24, 2012, 05:27:04 PM
Just be glad you are not in California Wing....Ground teams must wear the Ground Team Uniform (NOT BDU's) when on a mission or training.
CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
((a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) CAP Blue Field Uniform trousers.
The following insignia and patches must be worn.
(a) Blue Civil Air Patrol tape – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the right shirt pocket (only the
last name is used).
(c) California Wing patch – cloth: is worn placed 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left
sleeve.
(d) OES/Cal EMA Search and Rescue patch: is worn placed 1/2 inch below the shoulder seam on
the right sleeve.

BUT this uniform CANNOT be worn at the mission base.
The CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Base Staff or Aircrew functions at any time.
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a
search base in an out of service status
SO....You have to change from BDU on base, then to GT uniform to search, then back to BDU when back at base.
Tell me that isn't the definition of insanity!!!!!!!

So you have to change your blouse when you depart and return to the search base. Not exactly a hardship.

I think you missed the part where their GT uniform is the Blue BDU, not regular. They'd have to change pants and shirt. Much as I love being in CAP I highly doubt that I'd join if I moved there based on that BS.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

abdsp51

Not every unit in Ca Wg has a heavy ES mission.

Garibaldi

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 24, 2012, 07:46:48 PM
Not every unit in Ca Wg has a heavy ES mission.

Yes, but ES is my bread and butter in CAP. I work a little in CP and even less so in AE.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

PHall

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 24, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2012, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: Smokey on November 24, 2012, 05:27:04 PM
Just be glad you are not in California Wing....Ground teams must wear the Ground Team Uniform (NOT BDU's) when on a mission or training.
CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
((a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) CAP Blue Field Uniform trousers.
The following insignia and patches must be worn.
(a) Blue Civil Air Patrol tape – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the right shirt pocket (only the
last name is used).
(c) California Wing patch – cloth: is worn placed 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left
sleeve.
(d) OES/Cal EMA Search and Rescue patch: is worn placed 1/2 inch below the shoulder seam on
the right sleeve.

BUT this uniform CANNOT be worn at the mission base.
The CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Base Staff or Aircrew functions at any time.
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a
search base in an out of service status
SO....You have to change from BDU on base, then to GT uniform to search, then back to BDU when back at base.
Tell me that isn't the definition of insanity!!!!!!!

So you have to change your blouse when you depart and return to the search base. Not exactly a hardship.

I think you missed the part where their GT uniform is the Blue BDU, not regular. They'd have to change pants and shirt. Much as I love being in CAP I highly doubt that I'd join if I moved there based on that BS.

Nope, didn't miss it at all. Why would you have to wear the BDU? You gotta have the BBDU trousers anyway so wearing the BBDU at the base is not really a problem.

AirDX

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 24, 2012, 03:36:17 PM

That's a cultural issue, not a regulatory one. It would be perfectly reasonable for a unit commander to say 'The basic uniform is the  grey/whites or AF blues so our weekly UOD is that.' Most unit commanders don't do that and are happy to have people in any uniform. But from what I've seen from 3 regions, 6 wings, and at least 10-12 squadrons is a lackadaisical approach to many aspects of CAP. Usually in the planning/support side, especially among senior members. An attitude that if it isn't flying, or directly cadet programs it doesn't matter.

From the largest squadrons I've visited to the smallest I hear the same things: "I haven't really gotten trained" "Professional Development isn't important" "I only did PD because my commander made me" "All I have to do is wear the polo"

These all point to the overriding cultural problem in CAP that 'we're just volunteers.' We are not 'just volunteers' we are expected to be unpaid professionals; more like a volunteer fire department or EMS, not like the folks working a church rummage sale. To shift this culture will take effort from the top down. NHQ has been doing a good job pushing this with things like increased training, requirements, and accountability. But, as we see here, there has been a lot of push-back from 'the field.' I think some of this comes from the culture of each squadron being their own island. Yes, groups, wings and above are there to support the squadrons as they carry out their mission; but the squadrons exist to carry out the mission as set out by higher headquarters and public law. 

As to it being a nonsensical requirement, that's because you have only interacted with outside folks that haven't verbally looked down on the polo. The regulation, sensibly, sets forth a minimum standard. It may be a higher standard than what you like, but that's your problem, not a problem with the regulation or the headquarters setting it. The 'Polo-only, Polo-always' crowd may be tolerated in some places, but that's the culture they were brought in to. If we didn't accept that culture, I bet it would slowly weed itself out over time. As for being unenforceable? Hardly. Just a matter of commanders being willing to take the hit.

If we, as leaders, want to change the culture we simply have to stop making the polo shirt quite as accepted and make the wearing of gray/whites or blues the norm. If every PD course required the wear of the minimum standard uniform, and units did as well, I'm betting we would see Polo's relegated to mission base work and flying operations. Which really, is what it is best suited for anyway. And as was pointed out, the cost difference between a polo (especially a personalized one) and the gray/white combo is fairly minimal.

You're making a huge assumption (and a bigger mistake) in assuming that because I wear a polo shirt, and think the reg as written is both nonsense and unenforceable, that I'm unprofessional and lazy.  You are utterly incorrect.  I'm a wing staff officer, I work at it, I participate in the field at the squadron level, and I have the find ribbons, the DR with a V, and the rest of the bling to show for it.  I do PD because I want to (even though I got Captain through the hated mission-related promotions clause, TS on that one folks), including Air Force PME, and I have completed Level IV of the program.

The problem is that none of you can show any reason that the polo is any less of a uniform than any of the others, beyond your personal prejudices.  I spent the money and set up the grey/white combo; it's not that I am resisting the reg, it's that the grey/white hangs in the closet and never comes out.  I've been to meetings with folks from all over the region, 95% are wearing polos.  Soooo... what's the problem?  And don't throw the anti-military thing at me, it won't stick, I was in the Army BITD and I'm a civilian employee of the USAF now.  I'm happy to put my white/grey on, but there hasn't been a reason for me to in four years now, and I don't see one on the horizon anywhere.  You're going to have to tell me what culture it is that needs to change, because I don't see it.

Here's the culture I'm familiar with and that I like: Last month I was course director for an SLS.  About two hours after I got home from Saturday's session, we got the call: tsunami warning.  My class along with the rest of the wing flew warning routes and recon for the the state, ran comms and manned the county EOCs statewide.  I got home about 0130, and tried to figure out how I was going to get the second half of the class covered, since I knew I wouldn't get my class back in the morning.  Much to my surprise about half checked in by text message and e-mail by about 3 AM, saying they would be there!  In the morning, by our 8 AM start, 100% of the class was back, along with all the instructors, bright-eyed and ready to go on 3 hours of sleep!  THAT'S effort and professionalism - class all day, then SAFELY executing a high ORM, high stress night mission, and then back to class the next day, not missing a beat.  Oh yeah, we all wore polos or flight suits.  It's about executing the mission(s), in the classroom, in an exercise, and real-world, NOT about your personal ax you want to grind because you think we should all LOOK a certain way.

If YOU are around a lackadaisical flying-club outfit, that's YOUR problem to solve through motivation, education, and leadership.  Hanging around an internet chat board grumping about polo shirts is none of the above.  Polo shirts aren't a symptom, or a cause.  They are just shirts.           

Oh, and BTW: I don't give a RAT'S what they do in California.   
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

SARDOC

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 24, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
I think you missed the part where their GT uniform is the Blue BDU, not regular. They'd have to change pants and shirt. Much as I love being in CAP I highly doubt that I'd join if I moved there based on that BS.

I agree with PHALL.  If you decided to change pants because you choose to wear the Woodland BDU...That's still not a hardship.  It's just changing your pants which is really self inflicted.  You could just wear the Blue BDU for ES work.

Garibaldi

Quote from: SARDOC on November 24, 2012, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on November 24, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
I think you missed the part where their GT uniform is the Blue BDU, not regular. They'd have to change pants and shirt. Much as I love being in CAP I highly doubt that I'd join if I moved there based on that BS.

I agree with PHALL.  If you decided to change pants because you choose to wear the Woodland BDU...That's still not a hardship.  It's just changing your pants which is really self inflicted.  You could just wear the Blue BDU for ES work.

True, it's just a pain in the butt. I just object to 2 different uniforms. It's not a hardship, it's just BS.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things