Rank structure question

Started by Nikos, June 02, 2014, 11:33:12 PM

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Nikos

In the old days did CAP have enlisted ranks?  If so, how did it work?

For example, if a new member had a University Degree, did that person start as an officer?  If on the other hand the new member had no University Degree did that person go to enlisted rank?

The CyBorg is destroyed

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Garibaldi

More than likely, during the 1940s, when CAP was being used to train pilots for the Army, the officers were the pilots, while the enlisted held jobs like their Army counterparts. Afterwards, I don't know. Probably more of the same
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Nikos

The old photo I was looking at had CAP enlisted ranks in the photo.   Additionally, some of the pilots appeared to be wearing sidearms.  The photo was from the CAP in WWII.  That is the first I ever noticed CAP pilots carrying sidearms ( I should say what looked like sidearms in the photo).

The CyBorg is destroyed

CAP airfield guards were armed in WWII.

CAP personnel were also paid.
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Eclipse

All through the '60's there were CAP enlisted grades, for the most part they were just like the
cadet grades - you started at zero and worked your way up.

There were also billets and manning tables (i.e. what each unit should have grade-wise, which jobs they
fill and you can't move up until a billet vacates upstream, etc.)

My wing still has a few Lt Cols who worked that structure and then converted over.  I've seen one
still very active pilot in a photo flying a helo for CAP and wearing stripes on his arm.

"That Others May Zoom"

MSG Mac

CAP had a CAP Officers Course which was one of the criteria for appointment to the grade of 2lt. As stated earlier grade within a unit (cadet and Senior) were based on a manning table and the size of the unit.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Mitchell 1969

I remember two types of Airmen/NCOs in CAP during the 1960's-70's:

1) Former military NCOs who didn't want to become officers;

2) SMs who joined after age 18 but before age 21.

Ex-cadets over 18 with Mitchell Award were almost instantly appointed as Warrant Officers. They hD the option of converting to 2nd Lt or 1st Lt after turning 21 or remaining as Warrant Officers. Also, it was common to appoint SMs over 21 as WOs pending completion of appointment as 2nd Lt (WO and CWO was done locally, didn't appear on the membership card, while 2nd Lt and higher was recorded at NHQ and the membership card had to be updated).

The big problem with the second Airman/NCO option was that the TIG was very short and promotions locally controlled. Not unusual to have 18 year old Staff Sergeants and 20 year old Master Sergeants (CAP didn't use SMSgt or CMSgt then).
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Panache

Has anybody actually heard anything regarding the revised CAP "NCO" program?  There was that big announcement in October and... nothing... seven months later.

Anyhoo...

If they really want to expand / reboot the CAP airman side, my suggestion would be to reserve the Airman grades (Airman, Airman First Class, Senior Airman) for those CAP senior members who join only because their kid is a cadet and they really don't want to do any managing of the squadron, and they have zero interest in the PD program.

Example: Mr. Smith wants to join CAP because his son/daughter is a cadet.  But he's looking at all the other senior members and thinking "I want to help out, but I really don't want to deal with all that professional development nonsense.  I don't want to be responsible for commanding a squadron, or managing their finances, or any of that."

So, instead of joining as a SMWOG and becoming another empty-shirt 2d Lieutenant in six months, he joins as a CAP Airman Basic.

Give him an abbreviated version of Level 1, a "basic training" if you will, that covers the bare essentials (CPPT, OPSEC, a brief run-down on uniform wear and C&Cs).  Once he passes that and his FBI check comes back okay, he's immediately promoted to Airman and given his stripe. 

Airman First Class and Senior Airman will have TIG and some other requirements, but nothing too heavy.  Once they reach Senior Airman, they can work towards Staff Sergeant once they complete the full Level 1 program and put TIG or transition to the Officer track if they choose to do so.  (They can transition to the officer track at any time they wish, assuming they meet the requirements.)

The purpose of this will (1) encourage those who want to help out, but not "too much", to join and contribute.  (2)  It will give them something to personally work for and a goal to achieve, encouraging them to stay in CAP.  (3)  It's a nice carrot, as they can tell their buddies at the PTA meeting that they're "an Airman First Class in the Air Force Auxiliary."

In short:

Airman Corps
Adults who want to "help out" but don't have the desire, ability, or time to help manage the Squadron.  "Level 0.5"/Basic Training a requirement for Airman.  Also, adults who want to "try out" CAP but don't want to commit to anything yet.

NCO Corps
Prior RealMilitary™ NCOs or CAP Airmen who have worked up the ladder.  Level 1 a requirement for Staff Sergeant or higher.

Officer Corps
Everybody else.  Level 1 a requirement for 2d Lieutenant.

lordmonar

I can't say where I saw this.....but it is moving forward.   There are Regs in draft comment right now.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Garibaldi

Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Has anybody actually heard anything regarding the revised CAP "NCO" program?  There was that big announcement in October and... nothing... seven months later.

Anyhoo...

If they really want to expand / reboot the CAP airman side, my suggestion would be to reserve the Airman grades (Airman, Airman First Class, Senior Airman) for those CAP senior members who join only because their kid is a cadet and they really don't want to do any managing of the squadron, and they have zero interest in the PD program.

{snip}


I set a similar set of "requirements" in another post, very similar to yours. Sounds like we have a winner on this NCO/Airman deal.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

The CyBorg is destroyed

If I could, I'd start over as an Airman E-1 (or maybe E-3 because of my educational qualifications), just as I would be glad to start over as a WO if those grades still existed.

That way, I could never be accused of the apocryphal "CAP officers trolling for salutes" because I wouldn't be entitled to a salute from anyone, even within CAP.

When I rejoined in '09, I offered to start over as an SMWOG but my then-commander, bless her, put my paperwork through to get my Captain's bars back.

I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
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JeffDG

Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
From what I've seen of the NCO program, you imagine wrong.  Not only will you need approval of higher echelons to progress through the NCO program, you will need to be appointed to one of the numerically limited duty assignment slots in order to promote. 

lordmonar

Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
From what I've seen of the NCO program, you imagine wrong.  Not only will you need approval of higher echelons to progress through the NCO program, you will need to be appointed to one of the numerically limited duty assignment slots in order to promote.
No different then the top three ranks on the O-side.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
From what I've seen of the NCO program, you imagine wrong.  Not only will you need approval of higher echelons to progress through the NCO program, you will need to be appointed to one of the numerically limited duty assignment slots in order to promote.
No different then the top three ranks on the O-side.
Yep, but extends the concept down the chain some more.  Don't get the one slot at Group, too bad, can't promote you Sgt.  Same at Wing.  And if you're expecting less politics in picking people for those promotions, I'm pretty sure I can find you a bridge that you might like to invest in.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Hoping, yes.  Expecting, no.

I've been in CAP long enough to know that politics can never be divorced from CAP.
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lordmonar

Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
From what I've seen of the NCO program, you imagine wrong.  Not only will you need approval of higher echelons to progress through the NCO program, you will need to be appointed to one of the numerically limited duty assignment slots in order to promote.
No different then the top three ranks on the O-side.
Yep, but extends the concept down the chain some more.  Don't get the one slot at Group, too bad, can't promote you Sgt.  Same at Wing.  And if you're expecting less politics in picking people for those promotions, I'm pretty sure I can find you a bridge that you might like to invest in.
There is always politics and drama.....but there you go.  Want to be chief.......get a job a wing/group and move up.   Don't care about it....stay at the squadron.   

Can't keep on the good side of the "right" people.....maybe you shouldn't be a chief......no different then AD SNCOs.   There is always an element of politics in getting promoted to the top ranks.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 03, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on June 03, 2014, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
I imagine, and hope, that there are much less politics with enlisted/NCO promotions in CAP than there are with officers.
From what I've seen of the NCO program, you imagine wrong.  Not only will you need approval of higher echelons to progress through the NCO program, you will need to be appointed to one of the numerically limited duty assignment slots in order to promote.
No different then the top three ranks on the O-side.
Yep, but extends the concept down the chain some more.  Don't get the one slot at Group, too bad, can't promote you Sgt.  Same at Wing.  And if you're expecting less politics in picking people for those promotions, I'm pretty sure I can find you a bridge that you might like to invest in.
There is always politics and drama.....but there you go.  Want to be chief.......get a job a wing/group and move up.   Don't care about it....stay at the squadron.   

Can't keep on the good side of the "right" people.....maybe you shouldn't be a chief......no different then AD SNCOs.   There is always an element of politics in getting promoted to the top ranks.
I don't disagree with you...however the poster to whom I was replying has lamented multiple times about his not being able to promote because he doesn't know the right people at higher echelons.  I was simply dispelling his notion that it would be less political on the NCO side.  It won't, and the system as most recently proposed, will likely be more subject to politics than the current officer system.

Not saying that's a good or a bad thing, simply pointing the objective reality out.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Master Sergeant, I have never been any good at "bucking for a stripe."  I cannot be something I am not.
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Eclipse

^ Not really any different then the rest of the world, corporate or otherwise.

I don't know of too many situations, outsides >maybe< professional sports, where objective performance
is the only criteria for advancement (even professional sports have issues with timing and "who you know").

There's always an element of politics (in the generic sense) and having to impress the next tier.

"That Others May Zoom"