Whatever ever happened to "Officer" vs "Senior Member" ??

[Dixie]

Does anyone know the official position that CAP took on renaming our "Senior Members" as "Officers?"  The most recent thing I can find on this is a letter from Pineda suggesting it be done in our presentation materials and saying he was going to propose this at the Nov 06 NEC meeting; however, I can't find any material on what the official outcome of this was.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks

[lordmonar]

I was never an offical position.

It was only a suggestion to members about communicating to outside agencies.

[Eclipse]

Correct, and officially disavowed by our current National Commander in the notes from a meeting early on.  They are around here somewhere.

[Spike]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

[SarDragon]

That's because it's a course that officers take as a part of their PD path.

[Eclipse]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

No, they aren't. That is simply the name of one course.

"Officer" is not a grammatically or categorically correct generic term for adult members of CAP.  Its original, misguided intention was in an attempt to dispel some silly notion that "Senior" = "Old".  Further legacy of HWSRN.

The result was such fun such as:

"Officer Member Without Grade"

"Officer Member NCO's"

All adults in CAP are "Senior Members", but not all "Senior Members" are Officers.

If there's an issue with "Senior" as a generic term, so be it.  "Officer" is not an appropriate replacement for a number of reasons.

I personally believe that in the Grand Scheme®, there are and were more important things to worry about then things like this.

[Gunner C]

I always thought that "member" was a pretty good one.  Cadets could just be "cadets" (cadets are historically not "full members" of an organization, usually military).  That way we could designate adults with one word and include NCOs, SMs (without grade), etc.  But that prolly wouldn't be popular.

[Eclipse]

I always thought that "member" was a pretty good one.  Cadets could just be "cadets" (cadets are historically not "full members" of an organization, usually military).  That way we could designate adults with one word and include NCOs, SMs (without grade), etc.  But that prolly wouldn't be popular.

That was my suggestion when this nonsenses started.

[Fuzzy]

Alot of verbage in regs might need to change with that solution. When the reg means to say everyone and just says members.

And if I'm not a member I hope I don't have to pay dues.

[Spike]

^ that may be the case, but in certain situations saying "Officer" is best.

National is leaning more toward the term Officer anyway.  Is it called "Senior Member Basic Course" or "Officer Basic Course" for the course replacing ECI/AFIADL/AU23blah course??

No, they aren't. That is simply the name of one course.

"Officer" is not a grammatically or categorically correct generic term for adult members of CAP.  Its original, misguided intention was in an attempt to dispel some silly notion that "Senior" = "Old".  Further legacy of HWSRN.

The result was such fun such as:

"Officer Member Without Grade"

"Officer Member NCO's"

All adults in CAP are "Senior Members", but not all "Senior Members" are Officers.

If there's an issue with "Senior" as a generic term, so be it.  "Officer" is not an appropriate replacement for a number of reasons.

I personally believe that in the Grand Scheme®, there are and were more important things to worry about then things like this.

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

I think the hatred toward the word "Officer" is due to the fact that many disliked the previous National Commander.  Perhaps because he was of hispanic origin? 

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too. 

[sardak]

The CAP Constitution and Bylaws refer to cadet members and senior members. Officer is used for corporate officers and positions such as National Legal Officer.

Mike

[Eclipse]

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

And what do you do for new members?

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

You are mistaken, at least in this context.  Actually I think I have seen it myself in poorly written pubs, and
the reader trips over it like a misplaced noun if they actually understand CAP or the military.

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too.

And where is the ICL that directs you to use it to start with?  This is frankly quite a strange thing to draw a line on.

[lordmonar]

Do we really have to start up this conversation again? 

[Spike]

Well since I have no CAP NCO's in my unit, only people wearing "officer rank insignia", they are addressed as "Officers".  As in " Colonel Jones I would like to introduce you to my Officers". 

And what do you do for new members?

If I am not mistaken many of CAP's publications use the term "Officer". 

You are mistaken, at least in this context.  Actually I think I have seen it myself in poorly written pubs, and
the reader trips over it like a misplaced noun if they actually understand CAP or the military.

I will continue to use it until I see an ICL telling me not too.

And where is the ICL that directs you to use it to start with?  This is frankly quite a strange thing to draw a line on.

CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions, R35-5
50-17
39-3
39-1 (especially the change letters relating to the CSU)
174-1
10-2AFI10-2701

This was just a quick search, but each refers "Senior Members" as "Officers" in some places, within the context of identifying the member. 

In my area new Members are referred to as "Mister or Miss".  NCO's are are referred to as NCO's.

Once again, this is an area where there can be multiple opinions and support in various documents that can be construed either way.

With my Squadron on an AF Base, it is polite and propper to introduce my members to AF personnel as "Officers, NCO's and Cadets"  They understand those terms, while they may not understand what "Senior Member" means.

[SarDragon]

Gotta go with Bob on this one. The only thing I ever saw was a paper letter that was mailed to the units, and its intent was primarily for external usage of the term officer instead of senior member. I have nothing in my collection of downloaded regs, letters, etc. that shows any mandate to use the term CAP-wide.

Our officers are a subset of our senior members, and always have been. There other segments that don't fit into the definition of officer - new members without rank, NCOs, sponsor members, student aerospace education members, organizational aerospace education members, business members, affiliate members, state Legislative members, congressional members, and honorary members.

[vento]

IMHO, CAPM 39-1 The "Uniform Manual" defines Senior Members Without Grade vs. Officers quite clearly. It even spells out what one can and can't wear if not an officer.

All adult members are Senior Members, only grade 2d Lt and above are officers. The pay is the same though 

Funny, I found a way to bring uniforms into the discussion. Haha. 

[SarDragon]

Almost - you forgot about the Flight Officers. 

[ßτε]

CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions, R35-5
50-17
39-3
39-1 (especially the change letters relating to the CSU)
174-1
10-2
AFI10-2701

This was just a quick search, but each refers "Senior Members" as "Officers" in some places, within the context of identifying the member. 

In my area new Members are referred to as "Mister or Miss".  NCO's are are referred to as NCO's.

Once again, this is an area where there can be multiple opinions and support in various documents that can be construed either way.

With my Squadron on an AF Base, it is polite and propper to introduce my members to AF personnel as "Officers, NCO's and Cadets"  They understand those terms, while they may not understand what "Senior Member" means.

None of those posted refer to senior members generically as officers.

The context is either in reference to Corporate Officers, duty positions like Administrative Officer, or specifically to those holding officer grades (2d Lt through Maj Gen).  This is particularly true for AFI10-2701.

As a matter of fact the "change letters relating to the CSU" read "senior member officer" in nearly every occurrence of the word officer.

The regulations are consistent in this point. They do not use the word "Officer" to refer to a generic senior member, but only to those who either hold officer grade or officer position.

[JoeTomasone]

Describing Senior Members as "Officers" does not work because:

1. The term is exclusive of Senior Member NCOs

2. The term naturally includes Cadet Officers

3. SMWOG is excluded.



"Adult" doesn't work because Cadets can remain Cadets into (early) adulthood.   You can have a 21 year old Cadet as subordinate to a 19 year old TFO.


Internally, we need a term that describes a particular group -- non-Cadets -- because many regulations make a distinction between Cadets and non-Cadets.   I've been saying "Senior Member" for close to 30 years now, so it's second nature - but in that time I never made the illogical leap to "senior citizen", although I suppose I can envision it being made, I consider it as something of a stretch.   I've never heard of someone being offended or presumed to be elderly because they were a member of a "Senior Staff" or as a "Senior Advisor" or "Senior Vice President".   

Externally, you can describe members as befits the situation and their makeup.   "This is my staff", etc.   


Quite frankly, my vote would be to leave it as-is and let those who make incorrect assumptions be incorrect.

[Dixie]

geez....I just wanted to know if referring to our "Senior Members" as "Officers" had ever gotten past that memo that Pineda wrote back in 2006. I simple "nope" would have sufficed =)