What type of military status is cap?

[aveighter]

I suspect Maj. K will agree with me on how wonderful it was that the fellows sitting around the aerodrome drinking coffee on December 6th, 1941 were something other than a bunch of Styrofoam spined ninnies. 

Can you imagine the howl and wail coming from this bunch of weak sisters if Hap Arnold suggested they strap a bomb to the bottom of a wheezing wood and fabric airplane and fly out to sea with it and be (say it with vigor) aggressive?

Amusing but sad.

[es_g0d]

But seriously, would you launch even a SAR sortie with a Cessna in a combat zone? 

Depends upon the threat!  The O-1 Birddog (Army L-19) was of Cessna vintage, with similar performance to that our beloved 172s and 182s.  And they flew a LOT of SAR, FAC, and other missions over the skies of Vietnam.

Would I send a _CAP_ aircraft in combat?  I can scarcely envision a scenario outside of "Red Dawn" (see other thread) that would lead to such a necessity.

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

[Eclipse]

I suspect Maj. K will agree with me on how wonderful it was that the fellows sitting around the aerodrome drinking coffee on December 6th, 1941 were something other than a bunch of Styrofoam spined ninnies. 

Ditto (I think)

Today we're non-combatants, tomorrow that could change.

It would also be interesting to see which way the chest-thumpers run vs. those who say today they would quit.

I suspect things would change significantly if we were under a real invasion threat.

For me, if I'm going to be seen in a military-style uniform, I'd rather have combatant status and protection vs. being treated as a spy or an insurgent.

[JohnKachenmeister]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Also...in the event of war the UCMJ could be applied to us.

I know that you are only talking theory here... but...  I have four words for this...

No Way in Hades for any of these points!  

Even if we are physically invaded by billion soldier strong force from Communist China in a blitzkrieg like maneuver and everyone is pressed into a force like the Volksturm to defend our very lives, the CAP would not be organized as a combatant unit.   

I can hear it now!

"Now scramble Cadet Cessna Sqn 1, there is an imbound flight of Chinese J-10 fighers inbound.  ETA 10 Mikes..."  (just kidding here)  But seriously, would you launch even a SAR sortie with a Cessna in a combat zone? 

Why not a SAR sortie?  In Vietnam we used O-2 Cessna Skymasters with no more guns than our Skyhawks.

Why not use our 500+ planes for light airlift of spare parts?

Why not use our 500+ light planes to recon supply convoy routes in the rear?

I think the old OPLAN 100 has been overcome by events since 911, but anyone who read it knows CAP has a combat support role in major conflicts, whether or not the conflict intrudes into the United States. 

Hey... we had "Aerial Radiological Monitors" long before the first nuclear power plant was built.  They were to fly after the US got nuked by the Russians.

You ain't in the Peace Corps, pal.  You're in the US Air Force Auxiliary.

[Eclipse]

You ain't in the Peace Corps, pal.  You're in the US Air Force Auxiliary.

[cap235629]

I think the old OPLAN 100 has been overcome by events since 911, but anyone who read it knows CAP has a combat support role in major conflicts, whether or not the conflict intrudes into the United States.

I would love to read this but have googled to no avail, any suggestions?

[es_g0d]

OPLAN 1000.

[JohnKachenmeister]

My mistake. My fingers are getting weak and don't do repetitive key strikes so good anymore!

[Timbo]

hmm.... me, I would take the protections afforded me by the GC.  I hate to say it but, Airplanes, even unarmed airplanes are weapons.  Did you miss the month of September, 2001?  

You never know what is going to happen in the future.  CAP was combatant, it is a force multiplier, it can be made combatant again.  Those of you that say you would leave......I doubt it.  Citizens (American Citizens) will pull together and do extraordinary things when their nation calls them to.  Look at what happened Early 2002.  More Americans, of all ages volunteered to enlist in the Military Services, join red cross chapters, setup volunteer groups etc.  You would stay.      

[JohnKachenmeister]

However, Timbo, I hasten to point out that in the entire history of the Geneva Convention, no force opposing the United States has ever entirely followed its provisions.

The Germans came close, but there were still violations and mass prisoner executions, notably the Malmedy Massacre during the Battle of the Bulge.

The Japanese, North Koreans, and Vietnamese were particularly nasty to prisoners.  Scott Spieker may or may not still be alive from the Gulf War.

The Iranians cannot even abide by the Law of Nations that hold foreign embassies inviolate, a rule that dates back to the Pharohs.

In theory, CAP members should be treated in accordance with the Conventions, and given humane treatment, the right to retain their rank and insignia, the right to correspond, the right of notification of capture, and, as officers, the right not to be forced into labor.  Thankfully the chances of combat are remote to the point of being theoretical, since I don't think any American can expect such considerations if captured by the savage enemies we face.

[Timbo]

Thankfully the chances of combat are remote to the point of being theoretical, since I don't think any American can expect such considerations if captured by the savage enemies we face.

How true that is!

[major pain]

Being in CAP doesn't mean you're in the military.   

Yes, but CAP members have access to many military unique opportunities that average citizens don't. 

Also....The USAF counts us as total force when reporting on stateside activities.  That equates us to being considered part of their team.  Their team does not equate us to military status as Mike pointed out!!!

We are considered "trusted agents" to the USAF..

The CAP is the CAP 100% of the time it is the Auxiliary of the USAF when acting as an agent of the USAF only when workmans comp, Federal torts and claims and use of medical facilities are approved. we are not subjet to the UCMJ we do not carry a Geneva Convention number for POW status and most of all we have no authority over ANY MILITARY MEMBER.

sorry folks your not a military member but you are a trusted agent (title also given to civilian employees)

[davedove]

Thankfully the chances of combat are remote to the point of being theoretical, since I don't think any American can expect such considerations if captured by the savage enemies we face.

And that's the real truth of the matter.  Since all the work we do is stateside, we will not be involved short of an invasion.

Now, I wonder how many think that if an invasion actually occurred, we would remain "non-combatant."?  If a real invasion occurred, all it would take is a simple vote and we would be armed.  Heck, if it were bad enough they might not even take the time to vote.  "Here's your rifle, and that's your post.  Man it!"

[heliodoc]

The AF would probably take our aircraft leaving us in the dust and then those poor UAV pilots in waiting could have all the the fine G1000 technology to learn while waiting

I would suspect all Kombat Air Patrol are waiting to get your zoom bags on and chase AQ all arounsd the US

Risk Averse CAP  in combat ?? I bet there are some outhouse lawyers finding all that 501c3 data trying to  get us out of future combat or writing laws on how to do it  can you imagine all the hangar rash occuring while CAP pilots getting animated over emergencies??  Col Leeter  at CAP Safety would be watching this WITH interest....  All the CAP klaxon horns going off  "XYZ Sqdn you have 5 mins to man your planes!!!!"

All the CAP lights and sireeeens would be blaring.   Wow you guys.. 

I retired from RM and if pressed I go back..    CAPers standby man yours posts or go RM

WOW this forum is interesting.... CAP in combat???  maybe  MAY be we'll be chasing high tech subs all over again MAYBE guaranteeing another 60 years..

Sorry CAPers you are not the military....... I do believe trusted agents might fit

[Eclipse]

Thanks for the positive comments...

[heliodoc]

Poitive or not Eclipse,

OPLAN 1000 and SCATANA will be our drivers on this deal UNLESS some other "Above our Paygrades" get involved

If CAP can not get its basic requirements for NIMS and DHS done and get on those roles as directed thebn how is the US military going to use us?? 

It WILL be like herding cats.  Positive or not reality bites and if CAP does not believe in the future and where the money comes from and the training required as dictated and can not get along with OTHERS in the REAL community and sits as an island just because of our past, then we will be passed up...

There's a reason for all what's going on and handing CAP rifles, is probably doubtful unless "above our Paygrades say so

Our 501c3  and chartering have PROBABLY alot to do with our "so called" combat or non combat status

We can doooo alll the dreamin we want   but when  we are forced to the MEPS stations as 50 60 and 70 yr olds .......then we will be facing reality...... Think CAP is ready for war???   I doubt it

There are factors that will considered... how's that for positive???  Sounds like CAP has all its MOLLE and LBE ready for action., eh?? 

Again I refer some CAP members who like to chirp about the DHS and NIMS reqs  Grants maybe buying CAP combat gear, huh?  This voluntary NIMS and " other stuff" will have some far reaching implications and CAP can not afoorsd to sit by and be an island of its own....

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do not expect any CAP activity to involve combat ever again, but lets be clear in terms of the Geneva Convention and the law.

Congress says we can perform any non-combat mission of the Air Force.  "Non-combat" in that sense is not the same as "Non-combat" under the Geneva Convention.

Non-combat missions as defined by Congress include combat support missions such as light airlift and aerial recon.  Performance of these missions bring us under the definition of "Combatant" under the Geneva Convention.

I think a few of you guys are reacting on an emotional level to a basic "Apples and Oranges" comparison.  The definition of "Non-combat" in our law is different than the definition under the Geneva Convention.

Incidentally, "Non-combatant personnel" under the Geneva Convention are not classed as prisoners of war.  Medics and clergymen are considered "Retained Persons."  They have different rights and rules for repatriation.

[Rotorhead]

Assume Mexico invaded the southwestern United States as a part of "La Reconquista."  What you have just told me is that you would refuse to search for an A-10 driver who bailed out after being hit by ground fire.

I don't think it would make any sense at all for unarmed light civilian aircraft to be used for that mission.

We already have SAR units in the RM that are prepared to deal with the fact that enemy combatants don't hesitate to fire on rescuers. They can fire back, for starters.

We're not prepared in any way for that mission.

Your scenario is very romantic--CAP volunteers to the rescue!--- but you can't rescue anyone if you get killed on the way to the scene.

[Flying Pig]

Assume Mexico invaded the southwestern United States as a part of "La Reconquista."  What you have just told me is that you would refuse to search for an A-10 driver who bailed out after being hit by ground fire.

I don't think it would make any sense at all for unarmed light civilian aircraft to be used for that mission.

We already have SAR units in the RM that are prepared to deal with the fact that enemy combatants don't hesitate to fire on rescuers. They can fire back, for starters.

We're not prepared in any way for that mission.

Your scenario is very romantic--CAP volunteers to the rescue!--- but you can't rescue anyone if you get killed on the way to the scene.

I think we would be fighting the PJ's for that mission.  And I dont think we would win.

[Rotorhead]

Assume Mexico invaded the southwestern United States as a part of "La Reconquista."  What you have just told me is that you would refuse to search for an A-10 driver who bailed out after being hit by ground fire.

I don't think it would make any sense at all for unarmed light civilian aircraft to be used for that mission.

We already have SAR units in the RM that are prepared to deal with the fact that enemy combatants don't hesitate to fire on rescuers. They can fire back, for starters.

We're not prepared in any way for that mission.

Your scenario is very romantic--CAP volunteers to the rescue!--- but you can't rescue anyone if you get killed on the way to the scene.

I think we would be fighting the PJ's for that mission.  And I dont think we would win.

Precisely. They're trained and equipped to be the heroes who search for downed A-10 drivers.

We are not.