how "military" is CAP?

[everhopeful]

I'm thinking of joining CAP and have been wondering about something.  I am a former member of the CGAUX where there was very little adherence to military standards.  We did not salute each other, people made no attempt to look presentable in uniform, etc.  Does CAP enforce these types of things?

[MIKE]

Like the CGAux (I'm in 1NR BTW), it varies by unit.  Senior Squadrons can tend to be more like some flottilas... because there are no cadets.

[everhopeful]

I was in 1SR.  People would show up in wrinkled uniforms or wear the wrong shoes, etc.  I belonged to three different flotillas and they were all like that.  I was hoping CAP would be a little more strict about it. 

[MIKE]

The regulations are there, but it's up to the commanders to enforce them/set the tone... You could end up in a unit where everybody wears golf shirts and gray slacks... if they wear uniforms at all.

[FW]

CAP is more strict about uniform wear.  I've even demoted one member for continuing to wear his uniform wrong.  
We wear the AF uniform with distinctive insignia.  Grooming standards are close to Air Force standards.  We  have CAP distinctive uniforms for those who can not meet these standards.
No matter what style uniform a member wears,  you would expect a pride in ones self and pride in their unit and orgainziation.  It should be clean, neat and properly worn or, not worn at all.  Every member should feel this way. But....

I can't speak for everyone,  I can say this is how it is supposed to be.

[RiverAux]

CAP is more strict, but not REALLY strict....

[notaNCO forever]

IT depends on the squadron mostly.

[RiverAux]

As I think about it more, yes CAP uniform regulations (since that seems to be the main issue) are stricter, but I actually feel more like I'm in a military organization when I'm performing CG Aux functions.   

Why, because almost everyone at a CG Aux function is in the same uniform.  Yep, some of the people might not wear them well, but they're all wearing the same thing.  If anything, the CG Aux is usually better dressed since most functions put people in the blue slacks/light blue shirt/ribbons uniform which you almost never see in CAP outside of a wing conference (or seniors at a cadet unit on "blues" night). 

Many CAP members avoid the "military' stuff entirely by just wearing civilian style "uniforms" such as gray slacks, blue golf shirt. 

So, yes, CAP members are required to salute amongst themselves and on paper are more military, but you probably couldn't tell it by putting an average group of CAP members in the same room.

So, if the "militariness" of the organization is your prime criteria, I doubt CAP will really feel like much of an improvement. 

Just go to the organization that does the sort of mission and other activities that you enjoy and don't worry about the other stuff.

[Major Carrales]

Ah, the age old "Civilian Auxiliary" of the USAF (Military) debate.

The simplest answer would be to take it to the individual (person and squadron) level. 

BACKGROUND/REASONING
We each make CAP, in our sphere, what we want (need it) to be.   Thus, if you want to wear USAF uniforms and display military customs et al...feel free to promote that in your unit (if cadets are present you basically owe it to the program to do so).  Find like minded friends and have them do the same.  In time, if you grow tired of the lacks behaviors of some and have the numbers, charter you own unit and portray the style you wish.  An extreme but viable solution if the unit lacks that certain culture you desire.  We make it in our image.

A Warning
There is a limit to applying military "templates" to CAP.  It is all volunteer, orders are not given the force of an order as they might in the USAF or USA.  Being the characature of "General MacArthur" or "Patton" in the "in your face" way will not be popular and smacks of "poser/pretenderism."  The trick is to find a balance between the civilian and miliary sides of CAP.

The Outside World
I have found that, for the most part, the civilian community expects a certain amount of military decorum from CAP.  Some CAP members' Units operate more like a fraternal organization of flyers than an Air Force unit.   There is nothing wrong with that so long as the unit clings to the proposition that the mission is above all else.  A CAP Flying club where everyone is in it for "cheap flying" ONLY and that never flys an ES mission, O-Flights or the like is, in my eyes, an abuse of CAP resources.  the Public sees these types of CAP units and does us all a disservice. 

CAP is Volunteer Service (one of the organization's 4 CORE VALUES)...once that is lost, "laughed at" and "out of mind," the Community is in their rights to strip you of its support.

Yes, we are there to fly, however, the WHOLE of the Mission outweighs the personal agenda.

That's my opinion...do with it what you will.

[Short Field]

We wear the AF uniform with distinctive insignia.  Grooming standards are close to Air Force standards.  We  have CAP distinctive uniforms for those who can not meet these standards.

Or who have no desire to wear a AF uniform.   

The majority of senior members I have met do wear a CAP uniform and wear it properly.  We just have range of uniforms to select from.  The main thing is the mission. 

[sandman]

I'm thinking of joining CAP and have been wondering about something.  I am a former member of the CGAUX where there was very little adherence to military standards.  We did not salute each other, people made no attempt to look presentable in uniform, etc.  Does CAP enforce these types of things?

I was just wondering as to why you're a "former member" of the CGAUX?

What do you want to bring (skills) to your prospective new volunteer program and how do you want to use those skills? Or rather, what interests you as a volunteer?

Are you looking for a more regimented (military) program? What other programs have you considered?

I agree with others who have posted in that CAP and CGAUX vary greatly in their members motivation regarding dicipline and "military" professionalism. Have you been able to "shop around" and observe other CGAUX flotillas? If CAP is still an area of interest, are you able to observe various units near your location?

If you take the time, you should be able to find the right "fit" for your volunteer career. Be flexible. Choose to set a higher standard by your actions (proper wear of uniform, professionalism in your skill set, seeking improvement). Don't expect everyone to immediately follow your example. Your ability to exude pride and professionalism will eventually influence a few or more members to the standard you set.

v/r

LT

[FW]

We wear the AF uniform with distinctive insignia.  Grooming standards are close to Air Force standards.  We  have CAP distinctive uniforms for those who can not meet these standards.

Or who have no desire to wear a AF uniform.   

The majority of senior members I have met do wear a CAP uniform and wear it properly.  We just have range of uniforms to select from.  The main thing is the mission. 

"Sometimes we feel like a nut... Some times we don't."    

Our basic culture, though, is more "military" than the CGAUX.  According to other posts, military C&Cs there are formally frowned upon.  In CAP, they are expected.  That some squadrons are more lax than others, IMHO, is irrelevant.  Wearing the CAP distinctive uniforms doesn't change this.  It only relieves the wearer from saluting.  

[RiverAux]

Another aspect of "militariness" where CG Aux might actually have a slight advantage is that in my experience I actually see the military more in CG Aux than I ever have, or likely ever will, with CAP.  The CG is regularly at our meetings, we often help the recruiters, and I know those who work at CG units.  Of course, that may not be the experience at other CG Aux units either -- flotillas in isolated areas probably see just as little of the CG as most CAP units see of the AF. 

I suppose it depends on whether you place more value on the outward forms of being in the military versus actually working with the military.  Of course CAP and the AF are making some cautious moves (the VSAF program) towards possibly closing this gap. 

[mikeylikey]

^ Don't forget, the CG AUX and CAP are two different types of Auxiliaries.  We don't require supervision from the AF on most matters, and we are capable of performing AFAM without very much oversight.  The CGAUX has a very different mission to assist its Service, which CAP unfortunately does not. 

Maybe one day we will work closer with the AF (side by side even).  I think that should be priority, but many here disagree. 

[sandman]

Just to contrast CAP with CGAUX, consider the "Team" concept of the CGAUX vice the corporate concept of CAP NHQ.

Consider the post regarding Online Masters Degree and notice how the "Gold Side" considers the "Silver Side" in almost all of its programs (see my post of an "ALCOAST" message).

The USCG Home Page has a link for "Our People" and you'll notice that the CGAUX is a prominent topic, not a small link at the bottom of the "other links" panel on the USAF home page

Just food for thought.....

/r

LT

[everhopeful]

I was just wondering as to why you're a "former member" of the CGAUX?

What do you want to bring (skills) to your prospective new volunteer program and how do you want to use those skills? Or rather, what interests you as a volunteer?

Are you looking for a more regimented (military) program? What other programs have you considered?

I agree with others who have posted in that CAP and CGAUX vary greatly in their members motivation regarding dicipline and "military" professionalism. Have you been able to "shop around" and observe other CGAUX flotillas? If CAP is still an area of interest, are you able to observe various units near your location?

If you take the time, you should be able to find the right "fit" for your volunteer career. Be flexible. Choose to set a higher standard by your actions (proper wear of uniform, professionalism in your skill set, seeking improvement). Don't expect everyone to immediately follow your example. Your ability to exude pride and professionalism will eventually influence a few or more members to the standard you set.

v/r

LT

Thanks for asking these questions.  I'll answer each one:

I was just wondering as to why you're a "former member" of the CGAUX?  I was in the CGAUX for 4 years and belonged to 3 different flotillas during that time, mainly because I moved across the state.  The main reason I left was because I wanted to augment the CG, but was never able to.  None of the flotillas I belonged to encouraged CG augmentation and wanted me to become boat crew qual'd and patrol the local lakes with them, which did not interest me.  I also left because most of the members were, uh, elderly and I did not fit in.  Another reason is because they were starting up some type of background check process that was being handled poorly and I did not see any reason to give up my personal information to people who were not taking care with it.

What do you want to bring (skills) to your prospective new volunteer program and how do you want to use those skills? Or rather, what interests you as a volunteer?  I'd like to get into communications (radio).  I passed AUXCOM while in the CGAUX, but they'd never let me near a radio so that's as far as that went.

Are you looking for a more regimented (military) program? What other programs have you considered?  I am looking for something more regimented, but haven't found anything else.  I wanted to be in the military when I was younger but coudn't due to a medical issue, so yes, I suppose I am a 'wanna-be'.  I also looked into the Sea Cadets, but that seems to be more for kids.

I agree with others who have posted in that CAP and CGAUX vary greatly in their members motivation regarding dicipline and "military" professionalism. Have you been able to "shop around" and observe other CGAUX flotillas? If CAP is still an area of interest, are you able to observe various units near your location?  I suppose I could look into other CGAUX flotillas, but since I've already belonged to 3, I can't imagine the others would be  much different.  I have not visited any CAP units yet because I am out of town right now, but I am planning to visit a senior squadron when I get back.

If you take the time, you should be able to find the right "fit" for your volunteer career. Be flexible. Choose to set a higher standard by your actions (proper wear of uniform, professionalism in your skill set, seeking improvement). Don't expect everyone to immediately follow your example. Your ability to exude pride and professionalism will eventually influence a few or more members to the standard you set.   Thank you for saying this. I think in the past I let my frustrations with other people's behaviors influence me too much.

[Short Field]

I also left because most of the members were, uh, elderly and I did not fit in.  Another reason is because they were starting up some type of background check process that was being handled poorly and I did not see any reason to give up my personal information to people who were not taking care with it.

  I am retired AF and bet at least half of the members in my unit are much older than I am.   I would guess that most of the senior squadrons are similiar in age spread.  A cadet squadron or composite with a active cadet progrom would be younger.   CAP also has a background check process and the information will be reviewed by your squadron's senior leadership before they decide to forward your application.

[mikeylikey]

  Another reason is because they were starting up some type of background check process that was being handled poorly and I did not see any reason to give up my personal information to people who were not taking care with it.

I get perhaps 2 or 3 prospective members who never return after they find out there is a FBI fingerprint check. 

Honestly, I heard your reasoning before when it comes to background checks.  Half the time people have something to hide. 

Shouldn't the CG AUX already have your social #??  I think they ask for it when you join. 

I would be skeptical if you came to my SQD and told me you left the CGAUX when background checks started. 

NOT Saying you are a criminal, just my personal experience. 

[Pylon]

Visit your local squadron and go to several different meetings.  Observe, ask about their training activities, their ops tempo, see how the members act and wear their uniforms and check out their website and activity calendar.  It's the only way you'll know if CAP around your part will be a good fit for you.  CAP squadrons vary a lot across the nation, and everybody joins CAP for different reasons.  Experience it for yourself before making the decision to join or not join.

You can use the unit locator at www.gocivilairpatrol.com.

[RiverAux]

Depending on what state you live in, another alternative that is available is joining a State Defense Force, which is a state military unit.  While they are real military, quite frankly CAP and CG Aux actually end up doing much more than any SDF that I'm aware of.  Most spend all their time drilling with very few actual activations.  A couple of them are fairly active in augmenting with the National Guard in their state.

[everhopeful]

  Another reason is because they were starting up some type of background check process that was being handled poorly and I did not see any reason to give up my personal information to people who were not taking care with it.

I get perhaps 2 or 3 prospective members who never return after they find out there is a FBI fingerprint check. 

Honestly, I heard your reasoning before when it comes to background checks.  Half the time people have something to hide. 

Shouldn't the CG AUX already have your social #??  I think they ask for it when you join. 

I would be skeptical if you came to my SQD and told me you left the CGAUX when background checks started. 

NOT Saying you are a criminal, just my personal experience. 

Please reread what I wrote.  I didn't say I left because of the background checks.  I said I didn't like the way they were being handled.  The people who were collecting the information (other people in the CGAUX) were collecting very personal information in their living rooms and doing who knows what with it.  The information wasn't secure and quite a few people were not happy about it.

[RiverAux]

They must have been doing it wrong then.  While CG Aux members generally handle the 1 page form (that is pretty similar to CAP's application form), the detailed 7+ page form needed for certain CG Aux activities (including augmentation), gets shipped straight to the CG DIRAUX office and isn't handled by Auxies. 

[RRLE]

RiverAux,

This is one of those Auxie "Your mileage and district may vary" things. In some districts, the DirAux has appointed DDSL and ADDSLs (I forget what the acronym stands for). The paperwork goes to them first. They check it for completeness and then forward it to DirAux.

In some cases, FCs or FSO-PSs have taken it upon themselves, with no authority, to check all the paperwork.

And quite a few members are upset about it.

I know in the 7th District you could bypass the ADDSL and send your own paperwork to DirAux. But then they put it on the bottom of the pile and when they got to it, they got to it. You were sorta punished for trying to safeguard your info.

[everhopeful]

Thanks, RRLE.  That's exactly what happened.  I've been out of the CGAUX for a few years so I don't know if this is still how the district is doing things, but I hope not. 

[jpnelson82]

depends a lot on the squadron, and the commander. What are you looking for in militarism? Do you want Prussian Landwehr militarism or active duty Air Force Officer militarism. I haven't seen a unit make members walk the gauntlet for infractions yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet

[proveritas]

everhopeful, have you looked at ham radio? The ARRL has an ES-type program if you're interested in doing comm+ES: http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/pscm/sec1-ch1.html . I think you'd have the "old guy" problems though.

[Hammerhead]

You want Military?  Join the Military. 

[mikeylikey]

You want Military?  Join the Military. 

CAP can be military, and not a military branch at the same time.

Your suggestion of joining the military if you want military makes it obvious you know nothing about CAP and its history. 

[Short Field]

CAP is at most paramilitary.

[proveritas]

You could always join a squadron and if it's not sufficiently "military" for your taste, start taking steps to change that. One person with a decent uniform who follows military protocol can certainly influence the rest of a unit.

I think units would lose members, at least initially, if all CAP units were "hardcore" military, however. There's more than one member in my squadron who really are just looking for a volunteer opportunity and an excuse to run around in camo again. They're great at what they do for us and they're professional, but I think they would be put off by a strict military environment.

That's just my complete CAP newbie $.02 though.

[Psicorp]

That's just my complete CAP newbie $.02 though.

Welcome to the addiction!

[proveritas]

Thank you. Addiction it is. It started with a family member who "just wanted to fly" and now half of us are involved.