What's happened over the years?

[flyguy06]

I agree. The original topic was not about SAR or ES. It was about why has CAP formed groups and discriminates based on height and weight, military, non military.

But I think you are going to find that in any organization. In the Army, we combat soldiers often wonder why support troops get the same praises from the public as we do and many of them never leave the safety of the base. Combat soldiers sepaerate themselves from non combat soldiers. Different services look at each other differently. Some look down on other services.


In CAP, I experiencd it first hand at the SERWE. FLWG people did things differently from GAWG people and you see the divisivness.

My home squadron has a lot of ex military people in it, so a lot of them like to wear the military uniform cause thats what they are used to doing. So when a guy that has never been in the military comes in usually he cant relate to the stories that the military guys talk about and therefore feels like an outsider although thats not done on purpose.

[LittleIronPilot]

We've transitioned... you're talking about operational needs, ie: training required to meet a standard to operate (NIMS courses, etc)....

We haven't transitioned. NB is about to vote on NIMS compliance. That's the equiv of GES. It still doesn't allow you to do anything. See also this link for WSAR (last few pages) which is GT standards:
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf

[

Wow....if those are the standards our GT's are supposed to have, we have a decent amount of additional training to do, in addition to getting some people to start PT!

BTW...I agree with what you have said....we either need to get with the program and get compliant and get professional, or we need to get out of the ES business.

Here is the crux....ES/DR/DHS is going to become an even more serious and professional endeavor, even for "volunteers". If you are not willing to spend the time, effort, and energy you will most likely not be able to participate in the ES side of CAP. If CAP worries too much about keeping members happy they will lose the ability to do ES.

I have passed IC100, will be done with 200 by the end of the weekend, and plan on having 700&800 by the end of the month. Then I will work on other FEMA courses to improve my capabilities. Why? Because, volunteer or not, this is a serious business that requires dedication and professionalism. If you want to fly for fun or go play camping, find something else to do.

NOTE: Notice I was sticking to the topic of ES ONLY and did not mention a uniform or rank or anything else. My comments are merely reflective of the reality of the commitment in time, energy, and professionalism that ES requires.

[flyguy06]

Why does every post revert to ES? Thats not the topic of this post. We were talking aabout why CAP members have cliques and isolate those that dont fit into a specifc mold. I fail tounderstand why everything has to be about ES.

[flyguy06]

[/ If CAP worries too much about keeping members happy they will lose the ability to do ES.

We have to keep people happy because we dont make a paycheck here. So, sine we volunteered to do this, we need to be happy. I am a Major, If I were to barge in and make all the Senior Members come to attention and dress them down for having sloppy uniforms, they would soon get tired of me and leave. Then wher ewould we be? We have to lead, but leading a volunteer force is not leading a paid force. You have to handle situations differently.

Again, I am not speaking about ES because thats not my thing.(although I am a mision Obv and training to be an AOBD) I am speaking of CAP as a whole.

[LittleIronPilot]

Why does every post revert to ES? Thats not the topic of this post. We were talking aabout why CAP members have cliques and isolate those that dont fit into a specifc mold. I fail tounderstand why everything has to be about ES.

My apologies....

As for the "cliques" it all has to do with viewpoints of what CAP is, or is not, or should be.

All the talk about "inclusiveness" seems to be to remove any and all differentiating factors such as uniforms. Some argue that we should remove the military uniform and go corporate, others say keep both, and even a few voice military only.

Who is right? It all depends on the direction people feel the organization should take. CP would suffer from the loss of military uniforms. As others have stated, it is somewhat hypocritical to hold the cadets to a military standard with the senior member cadet leadership in non-mil uniforms.

Finally....many seem to lament the basic human condition. We ALL compartmentalize, contrast, and compare...it is just who we are.

Pilots vs. ground-pounders, ES vs CP, it happens. The difference is when does it cross from friendly rivalry (which is a GOOD thing as it drives members to improve themselves to "better" their friends), to divisive, destructive behavior? That can only be judged at each unit.

[DNall]

Why does every post revert to ES?

As for the "cliques" it all has to do with viewpoints of what CAP is, or is not, or should be.

Exactly. That's why I brought up the ES example. We have a conflicting situation here. On one hand we have a positive program that we want to impact as many people as we can with, so we try to be inclusive on the membership standards. That's where you get the idea that everyone can contribute something & we shouldn't be holding people back or pushing them away. On the other hand, we have a job to do, be that ES, CP, or just our standard operations as a paramilitary organization.

A lot of people in CAP think we should be inclusive, meaning scared to tell people they (their behavior, professionalism, physical capability, education, whatever) are not good enough to get the job done. In shying away from that confrontation, and in being as inclusive as we can, we ultimately create these cliques. We don't have to do that. We can either abandon our missions & be the inclusive military version of the boy scouts, or we can accept a mission first philosophy & be a lot more picky about who we allow to be members in the first place, or we can accept the compromise we have now & the conflict that comes with it.

Far as volunteer mgmt... You volunteer to join CAP & you can volunteer to leave any time you like. Everything btwn there is pretty much like the military. You might have a little more control of your fate, but I'll never be held hostage in my decision making by the threat of civilians walking out on me. You come here to be a professional, and you need to act like one. You have to put that culture in place & people will really live by it, even when they don't like it.