What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

Started by grunt82abn, May 13, 2016, 10:37:02 PM

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grunt82abn

 Ok I thought I made up my mind about just going the officer route, but now here I sit after this weeks meeting, realizing I hate being called sir!!! Making rank isn't that big of a deal, I just want to make sure I can still fly, and have all the same opportunities that I would as an officer. I would start out as a TSGT, but eventually would like to make MSGT. If any one has any insight on how the new NCO program is going to pan out I would love to hear it. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you!!! :)
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

SarDragon

Adapt, improvise, overcome.

Change is inevitable, and sometimes you need to be the one making changes. You live in a part of the country that is less formal and socially structured than others. In some of the places I've lived, everyone over the age of about 30 or 35 gets called sir or ma'am. It's a form of respect, and is unquestioned. The same goes for calling someone Mister, Miss, Missus, or Miz. It's there, all the time.

Personally, I've had to get used to the same thing - 20 year Navy enlisted, and 30-something year CAP officer, concurrently for a while. Suck it up, put on your big boy undies, and drive on. Others before you have done it, and others in the future will, too.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

lordmonar

As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

In Air Force tradition, NCOs can be and are often called sir, so don't let that be a deterrent. Whether you go the NCO or officer route is entirely up to you. In CAP, NCOs are still a novelty (even though they've always been part of the organization). The program is still being developed, so there's not much difference at the moment between a CAP NCO and a CAP officer. It boils down to whether you want to wear chevrons or bars.

Jester

I'm doing NCO track, just because I believe that's my wheelhouse and have no desire to be an officer.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

A deputy commander should be able to assume or exercise command of a unit in the absence of the commander. If NCOs can't command, then they shouldn't be deputies either.

Garibaldi

I'm just looking forward to when/if I ever get the option to trade in the bottlecaps for stripes. If not, meh. If so, good.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 13, 2016, 11:01:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

A deputy commander should be able to assume or exercise command of a unit in the absence of the commander. If NCOs can't command, then they shouldn't be deputies either.
Nope...not in CAP.  Deputy Commanders for X is just that only for X.   He/She does not automatically rise up to commander in the commander's absence.

But yes.....a major rework of 20-1 needs to be done.....oh wait.... :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

grunt82abn

Quote from: SarDragon on May 13, 2016, 10:55:04 PM
Adapt, improvise, overcome.

Change is inevitable, and sometimes you need to be the one making changes. You live in a part of the country that is less formal and socially structured than others. In some of the places I've lived, everyone over the age of about 30 or 35 gets called sir or ma'am. It's a form of respect, and is unquestioned. The same goes for calling someone Mister, Miss, Missus, or Miz. It's there, all the time.

Personally, I've had to get used to the same thing - 20 year Navy enlisted, and 30-something year CAP officer, concurrently for a while. Suck it up, put on your big boy undies, and drive on. Others before you have done it, and others in the future will, too.

I do get called Sir when I work at NavSta Great Lakes, doesn't bother me because it is expected in the environment. Just something about being called Sir, when I feel I should be addressed as Sergeant, knowing we have Sergeant Ranks. Thanks for the advice, I truly appreciate it!!!
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

grunt82abn

Thank you everyone for the advice and spelling out for me!!! Will let you know which path I choose later on.  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 11:05:20 PM
Nope...not in CAP.  Deputy Commanders for X is just that only for X.   He/She does not automatically rise up to commander in the commander's absence.[/quote]

Members can be appointed to "Deputy Commander" without a qualifier, in which case they would be the defacto commander in
the CC's absence.

Same goes for a situation where you are the CDS in a senior unit or flight.


"That Others May Zoom"

kwe1009

The way it is today there is no real difference between CAP officers and NCOs.  That is supposed to change with NCOs getting their own PD program.  I honestly don't understand the purpose of the program as it currently exists.  I chose to go the officer route since I felt that would be the best way for CAP to utilize my skills and experience.  I don't get hung up on being called sir or the whole officer versus NCO thing in the military.  I'm a SMSgt with nearly 30 years of service.  It doesn't bother me to be called by my officer rank.

JeffDG

Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 11:05:20 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 13, 2016, 11:01:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

A deputy commander should be able to assume or exercise command of a unit in the absence of the commander. If NCOs can't command, then they shouldn't be deputies either.
Nope...not in CAP.  Deputy Commanders for X is just that only for X.   He/She does not automatically rise up to commander in the commander's absence.

But yes.....a major rework of 20-1 needs to be done.....oh wait.... :)
CAPR 20-1, Para 16 disagrees:
Quote16. Command Authority during Temporary Absence of Commanders. During the temporary absence of a
commander at the region, wing or unit level, the vice/deputy commander or the chief of staff, in that order, will act as
temporary commander

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on May 14, 2016, 12:16:58 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 11:05:20 PM
Nope...not in CAP.  Deputy Commanders for X is just that only for X.   He/She does not automatically rise up to commander in the commander's absence.

Members can be appointed to "Deputy Commander" without a qualifier, in which case they would be the defacto commander in
the CC's absence.

Same goes for a situation where you are the CDS in a senior unit or flight.
[/quote]Senior Squadrons, and Cadet Squadrons don't have "Deputy Commander for Seniors" or "Deputy Commander for Cadets" respectively, only "Deputy Commander"

Ref:  CAPR 20-1, Figure 12 and Figure 14 for Senior Squadrons and Figures 17 and 18 for Cadet Squadrons. 

Only Composite squadrons have CDS and CDC

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

lordmonar

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 18, 2016, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?
There is no regulation that says they can't.   
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Brit_in_CAP

Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2016, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 18, 2016, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?
There is no regulation that says they can't.
In my experience, there is principally custom and practice.  Nothing says that an NCO can't hold the relevant qualifications and have the relevant experience.  In today's context, it is a limit as custom and practice, and current regulation, dictate that Chaplains are Commissioned (in the RM) and Chaplain Assistants are enlisted.  During the early days of the organized military in the UK, Chaplains were civilians.  Times and practice change.

THRAWN

Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2016, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 18, 2016, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?
There is no regulation that says they can't.

There is none that says that they can, either.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

THRAWN

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 18, 2016, 08:19:44 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?

35-5 seems pretty clear on this when combined with 265-1. Meet the requirements for appointment as a chaplain and you're an officer....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

kwe1009

The real question, and one that has been debated here quite a bit, is if there is no difference in what an NCO or Officer can do in CAP then what is the point in having both, especially if only former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs?

I am very proud to say that I am an Air Force SNCO but I just don't understand the point in having CAP NCOs except for the VERY few military NCOs that have no desire to be a CAP Officer.  To me the CAP NCO needed just as much as the Cadet First Sergeant position.  Neither position do what is traditionally done in the military.  Now if all adults who joined CAP had to progress through the enlisted ranks like the cadets do then I can understand it.  An NCO is a person to provides mentoring and leadership to junior enlisted (among other duties) and there are no junior enlisted in CAP. 

As it stands now, the CAP NCO program just seems to be a source of confusion among the general membership.  If there is a plan to make it more meaningful and separate from the Officer program I would love to hear it.  I think there is great potential here but not as it currently exists.