To mirror this example...

[Eclipse]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

[RADIOMAN015]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

Civil Air Patrol is NOT the military.  That's part of the problem with the organization, in that some live in a world of "military make believe".   No one is really going to be ordered to do anything -- they should be asked nicely.  At best, the adult leadership has the very significant challenge of finding volunteers that have an interest, as well as the appropriate basic skill set to successfully perform all duties/functions in the organization.  Most adult members have to be self motivated to do things to help the organization.

I think when one has to be talking about punitive type actions against the membership, it really means they lack the leadership skills to properly motivate an unpaid 'volunteer' staff and thus have become frustrated and likely ineffective. 

The organization at times comes across as being disrespectful to the unpaid volunteers in the field. (e.g. member's "self fund" vehicle/aircraft damages for alleged "negligence" rather than the corporation; no suggestion program with feedback to the individual as to why something suggested can't be done (or if even parts of the suggestion are adopted giving credit to that individual)), etc.

So keep on dreaming about CIVIL Air Patrol achieving what has been written about the US Military -- It's doubtful as an organization we will achieve this same recognition  

RM

[PHall]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

Civil Air Patrol is NOT the military.  That's part of the problem with the organization, in that some live in a world of "military make believe".   No one is really going to be ordered to do anything -- they should be asked nicely.  At best, the adult leadership has the very significant challenge of finding volunteers that have an interest, as well as the appropriate basic skill set to successfully perform all duties/functions in the organization.  Most adult members have to be self motivated to do things to help the organization.

I think when one has to be talking about punitive type actions against the membership, it really means they lack the leadership skills to properly motivate an unpaid 'volunteer' staff and thus have become frustrated and likely ineffective. 

The organization at times comes across as being disrespectful to the unpaid volunteers in the field. (e.g. member's "self fund" vehicle/aircraft damages for alleged "negligence" rather than the corporation; no suggestion program with feedback to the individual as to why something suggested can't be done (or if even parts of the suggestion are adopted giving credit to that individual)), etc.

So keep on dreaming about CIVIL Air Patrol achieving what has been written about the US Military -- It's doubtful as an organization we will achieve this same recognition  

RM

Uh RM, where did he say anything at all about CAP being the military.

You need to turn down the personal bias a bit. It's affecting how you comprehend what you're reading.

[RogueLeader]

Where did it say anything about negative punishment?  It doesn't. Just because it comes from the military, that doesn't mean we shouldn't emulate it.

[Eclipse]

RM, you couldn't have made my point any better, thank you...

[RADIOMAN015]

Uh RM, where did he say anything at all about CAP being the military.

You need to turn down the personal bias a bit. It's affecting how you comprehend what you're reading.

Looks to me like an attempted camp on of what the military has accomplished (some at CAPTALK have an inclination to do this being that we are the CIVILIAN Auxiliary of the USAF), because the author is always talking about us as a "para military" organization and all the ramifications that should be imposed upon Joe or Mary volunteer who don't live up to expectations.    I'm just adding my perspective to this and WHY we likely won't achieve this as an organization (and there's plenty more that could be added to this ).
RM

[a2capt]

I'm so glad Westover is really about as far over east as you can get from here.

[RogueLeader]

because the author is always talking about us as a "para military" organization and all the ramifications that should be imposed upon Joe or Mary volunteer who don't live up to expectations.   

If a member does nothing, or do what they are supposed to do, you know Admin do admin, ES do ES, etc.  What good are they (other than a few bucks and numbers on the rolls), and how do they help me accomplish my mission?  If they don't get rid of them, or suggest they find a more suitable line of volunteering.

RM, you couldn't have made my point any better, thank you...

+1

[RADIOMAN015]

because the author is always talking about us as a "para military" organization and all the ramifications that should be imposed upon Joe or Mary volunteer who don't live up to expectations.   

If a member does nothing, or do what they are supposed to do, you know Admin do admin, ES do ES, etc.  What good are they (other than a few bucks and numbers on the rolls), and how do they help me accomplish my mission?  If they don't get rid of them, or suggest they find a more suitable line of volunteering.

Well, this just isn't as easy at it appears.  Surely patron status might be in order.  HOWEVER, I've seen folks that basically just do special projects for the unit and I would keep them around because it does contribute to the unit.   You have to remember that a lot of these "expectations" are really about what is in the CAP-USAF inspection checklist for that function, it's primarily administrative paperwork --  I think we sometimes cause our own problems because the new member has a different expectation as to what they will be doing/achieving in CAP (likely they think they will be out saving lives on a weekly basis, or stopping terrorists threats) when in reality much of it is mundane paperwork .   We can't control much of this at the squadron level ONLY to be sure that a member understands "reality" of being an adult member in the unit.
RM     

[lordmonar]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

Having actually worked with some of these guys.........they spend some of their time worrying about bling, compensation and uniforms, inequality in promotions, stupid training hoops, dumb safety requirments.....just like we do here on CT.

The Real Military is not much different then CAP in that respect.
CAP for the most part does focus on exceeding expectations and is focused on the mission at hand and working together.

So......you are just blowing a bunch of steam around.

[RogueLeader]

That's fine, I'll take what they can give. I won't take them giving nothing. If special projects is all they can do, great.

[FW]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

Um, I didn't realize a statement like this would be considered "controversial".  Who would argue that any team or organization should not act with "courage, selflessness and, teamwork"?   

[RogueLeader]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

Um, I didn't realize a statement like this would be considered "controversial".  Who would argue that any team or organization should not act with "courage, selflessness and, teamwork"?   

This is captalk. We blow mole hills into mountains as a matter of course. As well as the obligatory I have to be against it cause he's for it syndrome.

[lordmonar]

That's fine, I'll take what they can give. I won't take them giving nothing. If special projects is all they can do, great.

+1

I look at CAP as more like the Air National Guard as opposed to AD USAF.

In the ANG you have the majority of the people who are just weekenders.....they do their 2-3 days and then you don't see them for a month.
And then you have the full timers who "run" the units.

Most units I have been associated with have about 10% who are here every day/week holding down those jobs that need to be done everyday/week....and then the 80% who are there when needed for SAREXs, Encampment, Comm Training, AE, Character Development, O-rides, what ever....then you have the other 10% who never answer e-mails, never do their safety training...but keep re-upping every year.

I'll take them all.   If they become too much of an admin burden then I'll patron them or transfer them to the 000 squadron.

There is a happy moderate middle ground between the HARD CORE military mind set and the HARD CORE Flying Club mind set.....which is where most of us actually live, work and play in our CAP lives.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps I should have just posted the second sentence.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Civil Air Patrol is NOT the military. 

When in doubt...restate the obvious.

That's part of the problem with the organization, in that some live in a world of "military make believe". 

I wonder what world you live in, because I certainly don't see it.  Back in 1993 when I took my Level I, and I got grilled quite substantially, I made an error in saying that CAP would be subject to the UCMJ.  The Major (later Colonel) instructing me said, "no, we are civilians."  I've never heard otherwise.

I think when one has to be talking about punitive type actions against the membership, it really means they lack the leadership skills to properly motivate an unpaid 'volunteer' staff and thus have become frustrated and likely ineffective. 

Punishment?  For what?  Did someone fart at a Commander's Call?

The organization at times comes across as being disrespectful to the unpaid volunteers in the field. (e.g. member's "self fund" vehicle/aircraft damages for alleged "negligence" rather than the corporation; no suggestion program with feedback to the individual as to why something suggested can't be done (or if even parts of the suggestion are adopted giving credit to that individual)), etc.

On that we agree...I think.

So keep on dreaming about CIVIL Air Patrol achieving what has been written about the US Military -- It's doubtful as an organization we will achieve this same recognition  

And I thought I was the cynic...

[Flying Pig]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don't obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

I must have spent 20 years in a different CAP!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Perhaps I should have just posted the second sentence.

No, you did just fine.

[RADIOMAN015]

What I'd like to add to clarify a bit is in my experience NO real mission has ever been impacted negatively by all the other mumbo jumbo that is going on in the organization.  Surely, this shows at least at ES level there's mature adults that are dedicated in getting the job done.    I would also say that in the cadet program I've seen some VERY dedicated adult volunteers that have kept up the momentum for many years, and I do respect and salute all who are doing their best :clap: 

Perhaps there's more pockets of success in CAP that do achieve the quotes in the original post.
RM

[Spaceman3750]

What I'd like to add to clarify a bit is in my experience NO real mission has ever been impacted negatively by all the other mumbo jumbo that is going on in the organization.

Sure it has. People get fed up with the other crap and cut back on their involvement. "I don't want to do mission-related task X because I would have to do paperwork Y and get approval Z." I'm not saying that's a good attitude to have, but when many of our members are only willing to do things that are convenient for them, increased "mumbo jumbo" means more frustrated members who cut back their involvement in other areas either out of frustration or out of spite.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sure it has. People get fed up with the other crap and cut back on their involvement.

Or issues involving Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

We don't get paid monetarily, so chest candy is really the only visible, tangible way of saying "attaboy" or "attagirl."  Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the only ribbons you get for just "showing up" are the Membership and Red Service ribbons.  Everything else is performance-related.

Sometimes it can really stink having a behind-the-scenes job where what you do often isn't recognised.  One of the things I roll my eyes about in CAP is seeing second lieutenants (or even SMWOG) with Commander's Commendations, Achievement Awards (sometimes multiple), etc. and they haven't even been in a year, but they know the "right" people at Group, Wing, etc. and/or do a high-visibility job.

Other than another clasp on my RSR, I have the same set of ribbons that I had five years ago, and I don't envision getting any more, except for probably the Garber.  Why?  Well, a lot of what I do (Administration) is behind-the-scenes, and being very reserved by nature (though you wouldn't know it from my verbosity on CT!) I'm not one to put myself forward.  Much of what I do is either in a secluded room at the squadron facility or at home.  A lot of our cadets probably don't even know who I am.  I'm kind of "afflicted" with the "tall-poppy syndrome."

I know that sounds terribly egoed-out, self-centred and only caring about chest candy, and I don't mean it to.  If it were only about that, I wouldn't have been part of CAP for as long as I have, and put up with some of the Bravo Sierra that I've put up with.

What I'm trying to get at is expanding on what Spaceman3750 said.  If people in this, or any other, organisation don't feel valued and needed, usually they don't stay around.

[lordmonar]

Actually the Membership Ribbon is performance based.....you must complete Level I training. 

[RogueLeader]

So is the red service. You have to pay nhq.     

[flyboy53]

"These achievements are a testament to the courage, selflessness, and teamwork of America's Armed Forces.

At a time when too many of our institutions have let us down, they exceed all expectations. They're not consumed with personal ambition. They don’t obsess over their differences. They focus on the mission at hand. They work together."

OK, so you guys beat up the point that we're not the military and the chest bling and promotions are the only tangible means of recognition. In the grand scheme of things the ribbons really mean nothing but small indicators of performance.

If promotions were the preferred performance-based means of recognition, the higher ranks would be more accessible in the field and less political.

So, what's wrong with conducting ourselves to level of this standard. Just about everything I've read to this point is an excuse why not. Living and conducting ourselves to this standard would make us an organization of value to the nation and its leadership. Why not commit ourselves.....you don't think we can?

[lordmonar]

I think we do.

[NIN]

I'm so glad Westover is really about as far over east as you can get from here.

You can get further. I am further.

[SarDragon]

I'm so glad Westover is really about as far over east as you can get from here.

You can get further. I am further.

Been they-uh, done that.

And Boring by God Loring is even fah-thuh than that. Can't get they-uh from he-yuh.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think we do.

I think we do too, but my point is that this organisation is not as a whole good at giving members an "attaboy/girl" for a job well done, especially if it doesn't result in a "Find" ribbon.

[lordmonar]

I think we do.

I think we do too, but my point is that this organisation is not as a whole good at giving members an "attaboy/girl" for a job well done, especially if it doesn't result in a "Find" ribbon.

I think we are as good as any other organisation...including the Real Military.
Even in the real military you have pocket of medals as candy....and pockets of "save the universe from utter distruction and got an AFAM".  You get the "golden boy" syndrom where some person is chose at more or less random to be the "Airman of the Year" and they make it happen but he can't do his job or they ignore major discrepancies in his character/performance.

CAP is no better or no worse then anyone else.

But here on CT......where opinions are so polarised and examples are blown out of porpotion.....it may seem like CAP is full of Long Haired, Over Weight, Military Wannabes, who want nothing more then a bunch of ribbons, no accountablity, and even less training.......or they are nothing but a flying club who want to sit around all day telling flying stories and fly CAP's airplanes so they don't run up the time on their sweet C-182.

CAP gets the misison done.  We have our share of problems.....but anyone.....ANYONE who suggests that when the rubber hits the road that we are not dedicated, mission focused professionals......is absolutley, totally full of fecal matter!

[/rant]

[Eclipse]

CAP is no better or no worse then anyone else.

Excellence is about how good your are, not how good you compare.

[lordmonar]

CAP is no better or no worse then anyone else.

Excellence is about how good your are, not how good you compare.

Wait......you compared us to the military in the first place!

No changing sides when the argument is going against you! 

[Eclipse]

How can a call to excellence, which was the intention of the OP, be considered an argument?

>I< never "compared" us to anything.  I said we should mirror the example of teamwork and mission.

[flyboy53]

How can a call to excellence, which was the intention of the OP, be considered an argument?

>I< never "compared" us to anything.  I said we should mirror the example of teamwork and mission.

Agree, then we have a perceived value to those outside the organization; especially the ones who control our funding.

Besides, that statement sets a standard to achieve.

[lordmonar]

How can a call to excellence, which was the intention of the OP, be considered an argument?

>I< never "compared" us to anything.  I said we should mirror the example of teamwork and mission.

Okay.....and I said we do.