CAP Cleaning House?

[DakRadz]

^ Point taken sir. But the original "with all due respect" really was intended respectfully.

Incompetence? That's strong for my tastes. Leadership is a learning experience, and everyone makes mistakes- I'd say that our leaders have to learn from mistakes just like us, and I can understand that to a point. [joke]The point will be reached if the Triangle Thingy is kept [/joke]

Point also taken about companies pirating insignia for their own profit- however, this isn't the intent of all of them, and when a lower cost alternative is shot down (even with the contract requiring this be done when discovered) it can lead to anger. I personally buy my own items often, and Vanguard is just so expensive... Hard to afford sometimes.

While I'm not sure the Core Values were applicable to be cited, it's never a bad thing to remind other of them, especially here. And the USAF Blue Book quote was rather refreshing, actually.

Thank you sir! I look forward to my promotion

EDIT:
P.S. I know that I'm not anonymous. Two cadets in my flight at encampment watch CAPTalk (one actually guessed my username after hearing my real name) and the other has corrected me on Encampment Stories (see the topic). A flight officer is on this board whom I know from above activity.
These are only a few who know me partly through CAPTalk- plus, any Officer who felt I needed to be personally reprimanded could do so rather easily. Not that I'll make it easy and tell you how.

[Eclipse]

Point also taken about companies pirating insignia for their own profit- however, this isn't the intent of all of them,

What is the "intent" on the others?  Charitable contributions and free product?

Let's not kid ourselves here - no one who is or was selling CAP insignia or related items is doing it as a "service" to CAP.
The bottom line is a profit motive, that's why people get up in the morning.

About 3 years ago a fellow member and I considered buying an embroidery business, with the main emphasis being all the "cool things we could make for CAP..."  then we realized that as much fun as that would be, its not exactly a good business plan.  The equipment needed to make this stuff isn't remotely free, and unless you are independently wealthy, retired, or get your business advice from Jim Cramer, you're only going to make the investment if you can make some cash, that includes farming it out to the 3rd world.

[a2capt]

...and the part where the same exact item is several dollars more for CAP members than it is when you buy it from the RM side of the site.

On many occasions I've tried to find specific examples of this and it does seem they have corrected the difference. They also apparently have backed down on their shipping, though their lead time still kinda sucks, but they probably don't have the staff of Netflix, or Wal*Mart, but they most certainly do have a larger operation than the Hock, if someone's job was solely CAP I'm not unconvinced they could get all those orders pulled in the same day they came in.

[HGjunkie]

My last post was aimed at HGjunkie, not you. Regarding your commentary, SMs should know better, and those who go too far afield of the MCoC get their turn in the counseling barrel. Cadets sometimes need a little more up front guidance. Some pay attention, some don't. It's their call.

I already said my piece to you a while back, and you didn't seem to get the point, so I've got you mostly on ignore. I suspect you have the same attitude about me. It all matters little in the grand scheme of things.

[edit] I suspect the Click Clock is ticking away as we speak.

Bullet dodged. I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet. It would make the Cadets more interested in joining in on other discussions.

[Eclipse]

I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet.

In the words of ICENINE, "It's nice to want things...".

Welcome to the internet - "freedom of speech" does not equal "freedom from responsibility for what you say or how you say it".
It is a lesson hard-learned by many.

[HGjunkie]

I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet.

In the words of ICENINE, "It's nice to want things...".

Welcome to the internet - "freedom of speech" does not equal "freedom from responsibility for what you say or how you say it".
It is a lesson hard-learned by many.

I'm not saying we should adopt a "fire and forget" mindset about posting, but that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and even though we don't have to agree with someones opinion, we should respect that they have that right.

[Eclipse]

I'm not saying we should adopt a "fire and forget" mindset about posting, but that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and even though we don't have to agree with someones opinion, we should respect that they have that right.

You absolutely have a right to your opinion, but never forget that cadets and seniors are not peers, here or anywhere else.

If one was interested in the discussion, one could argue that senior members are all peers because at the end of the day we're
"just" adults working towards the same end and for the same pay, but not so for the cadets who are being served by the seniors.

Internet forums like this, without the reminders, tend to breed an inappropriate level of familiarity and informality, which for an organization like ours is a very bad idea.

Your ideas will stand or fall on their own merits, but as Ned commented, we all have a duty to exhibit faith in the system and our leaders,
and give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to their actions.

[Flying Pig]

I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet.

In the words of ICENINE, "It's nice to want things...".

Welcome to the internet - "freedom of speech" does not equal "freedom from responsibility for what you say or how you say it".
It is a lesson hard-learned by many.

I'm not saying we should adopt a "fire and forget" mindset about posting, but that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and even though we don't have to agree with someones opinion, we should respect that they have that right.

You can have your opinion all day long.  That doesnt mean you have the right to voice it.  Many a young cadet has learned that the hard way.  One of the draw backs of the internet.  In a SQ setting, you, as a C/SSgt would not typically be permitted to stand around and just shoot the breeze with Seniors about the things we discuss here.  Here, you are able to because its the open internet.  So by coming on CAPTalk, cadets are afforded a privilege outside the realm of the Cadet/Senior relationship.  In my unit,  I would be talking to the DCC and asking why C/SSgt HGJunkie is out of place and not with his flight.
You think we are equals because on CAPTalk, LTC Joe Smith can post a response and immediately after, C/B Yahoo can post (anonymously or not, their choice) telling LTC Smith hes full of himself.  Because of your access to us here on CAPTalk, you may think we are equals, but we are not.  If you have the word "Cadet" anywhere in your title as a CAP member, you are not a peer and are not equal.  You are a subordinate and I am your superior.  You are not any less important or any less valued.  In fact, I would say you are more "important" than any Senior Member.  However, do not forget your place in the food chain.  A lesson that will pay you dividends in the end.  BELIEVE ME!
This does not mean we cant have discussions. I know many cadets who are grown men and women and are very educated.  But again, superior vs. subordinate relationship until you switch to the Senior side.

[RiverAux]

I have noticed that some senior members here are very likely to start a response to a cadet's post with "Cadet...." while they never do the same thing in response to a senior member's post.  A not so subtle way of putting the cadet in their place.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have noticed that some senior members here are very likely to start a response to a cadet's post with "Cadet...." while they never do the same thing in response to a senior member's post.  A not so subtle way of putting the cadet in their place.

Which sometimes is needed in all honesty. Kinda reminds me of that one cadet who in his first post suggested that disagreements between cadets is resolved with fists, not words...

Really no different if I were to begin it with "Airman".

[Lt Oliv]

You know, I never really considered cadet participation and the like.

I don't see anything wrong with respecting boundaries (calling one "cadet" or "sir" in this case) or in expressing disagreement respectfully.

I think one thing that is a bit "over the line" is when we take an on-board issue and bring it into CAP.

CAP Talk, while fun, is not a CAP event. It is a rather informal gathering of CAP members in cyberspace. If a cadet or a senior says something and we then try to take it off of the board, that is a boundary I think we should not cross.

If a cadet (or senior) is overly disrespectful, I say suspend them from the board, don't approach their unit.

[O-Rex]

Of all the services, Auxiliaries, SDF's and anyone else who wears some type of uniform, note that only CAP sends out the nastygrams to vendors...

Since you can't prove the negative, I won't ask you to cite anything, but rest assured the US Government spends thousands of dollars and hours managing the lucrative licensing of the various indices of our military services and agencies, including plenty of C&D's to people
slapping logos on junk.

Big diff between logos and branch tapes.....

The Army licenses a watch with the 'Star in the box logo" that you can get in major dept stores, but that's not what we're talking about.

Vendors who sell flightsuit nametags don't get C&D letters from RM: how do I know? because I asked them.

It's an intimidation issue: no one's ever had the gumption to call CAP Legal to task on the whole 'exclusive rights' thing: simply declaring that you have rights doesn't mean you in-fact have them.  Either you copyright something/register a trademark or you don't.  Its' just that the cost/benefit of pushing the issue is not worth it for most (again, I asked) or in the case of the Hock Shop, just a little-guy (who incidentally IS a CAP member) that doesn't have an attorney on retainer.

[Ned]

It's an intimidation issue: no one's ever had the gumption to call CAP Legal to task on the whole 'exclusive rights' thing: simply declaring that you have rights doesn't mean you in-fact have them.  Either you copyright something/register a trademark or you don't.  Its' just that the cost/benefit of pushing the issue is not worth it for most (again, I asked) or in the case of the Hock Shop, just a little-guy (who incidentally IS a CAP member) that doesn't have an attorney on retainer.

You know, it is always easier to stand on the sidelines and urge other people to engage in expensive (for both sides) legal battles, especially if one only has a fuzzy idea of the legal principals involved. 

For instance the "sound legal advice"  of: 

Either you copyright something/register a trademark or you don't.

doesn't appear to adequately consider the applicable  federal law, specifically 36 USC 40306, which provdes

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil
    Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges,
    descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the
    corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

which appears to afford CAP, Inc. a great deal of protection for its intellectual property, even without a trip to the US Copyright Office or the US Patent and Trademark Office.


(And, BTW, if one's company is so small as to not have an attorney on retainer, then perhaps the better practice on a cost/benefit basis is not to pirate the intellectual property of other companies, large or small. )

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[O-Rex]

All this hullaballoo for $1 nametapes and $5 nametags (since that's primarily what we are talking about)  both of which I can get for much better quality in places other than Vanguard.

Again, I say two words that speak volumes: organizational culture.

Kool-Aid conneiseurs flame away. 

[Ned]

All this hullaballoo for $1 nametapes and $5 nametags (since that's primarily what we are talking about)  both of which I can get for much better quality in places other than Vanguard.

Again, I say two words that speak volumes: organizational culture.

Kool-Aid conneiseurs flame away. 

I wholeheartedly agree that the issue is not worth a hullaballoo of any sort among folks who have informed themselves about the issue or simply place some amount of faith in their volunteer leaders.

Folks who have not bothered to carefully look at the issue, or who enjoy criticiszing their leadership anonymounsly on the internet, however, seem to really enjoy talking about it.

And I also agree that that is an issue of organizational culture that free and open discussion is designed to assist.

I remain ready to disucss the issues openly, calmly, and respectfully.

Ned Lee
NHQ Apologist

[jimmydeanno]

The exclusive contract with Vanguard affords CAP certain monetary benefits.  Not having to supply their members through an "in-house" store removes a significant amount of overhead from the books in the form of employees, inventory, insurance, etc.  Additionally, with the contract they get to engage in a profit share.

If CAP is getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Vanguard because of their contract, it only makes financial sense for the corporation to stop other vendors from producing CAP stuff.

Assume that The Hock Shop had 1 million in sales.

Assume that Vanguard kicks back 10% of their CAP sales to CAP.

That 1 million in sales that went to The Hock just cost CAP $100,000 - or the price of several NCSAs.

The multitude of vendors using CAP's name on things is costing our program money.  Just like Ford and Robert Kearns.

[HGjunkie]

I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet.

In the words of ICENINE, "It's nice to want things...".

Welcome to the internet - "freedom of speech" does not equal "freedom from responsibility for what you say or how you say it".
It is a lesson hard-learned by many.

I'm not saying we should adopt a "fire and forget" mindset about posting, but that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and even though we don't have to agree with someones opinion, we should respect that they have that right.

You can have your opinion all day long.  That doesnt mean you have the right to voice it. Umm, excuse me? care to elaborate? Many a young cadet has learned that the hard way.  One of the draw backs of the internet.  In a SQ setting, you, as a C/SSgt would not typically be permitted to stand around and just shoot the breeze with Seniors about the things we discuss here. Well, since i'm the second highest ranking cadet in the squadron, and have good relations with my Commanders, we do talk about CAP related things. Here, you are able to because its the open internet.  So by coming on CAPTalk, cadets are afforded a privilege outside the realm of the Cadet/Senior relationship.  In my unit,  I would be talking to the DCC and asking why C/SSgt HGJunkie is out of place and not with his flight. Could you elaborate? I can't understand if your saying this would go on because it happened at Sq. or online.
You think we are equals because on CAPTalk, LTC Joe Smith can post a response and immediately after, C/B Yahoo can post (anonymously or not, their choice) telling LTC Smith hes full of himself.  Because of your access to us here on CAPTalk, you may think we are equals, but we are not.  If you have the word "Cadet" anywhere in your title as a CAP member, you are not a peer and are not equal.  You are a subordinate and I am your superior.  You are not any less important or any less valued.  In fact, I would say you are more "important" than any Senior Member.  However, do not forget your place in the food chain.  A lesson that will pay you dividends in the end.  BELIEVE ME! Really? Even though my cadet status only applies to me when conducting CAP official business? I think if a person can be mature about their posts and back up their POVs, arguments, etc, and contribute to the forum, then they should be equal to everyone on the forum ON THE FORUM.
This does not mean we cant have discussions. I know many cadets who are grown men and women and are very educated.  But again, superior vs. subordinate relationship until you switch to the Senior side. Yes, while conducting official CAP business.

Anyways, I thought this Forum was to act as "a discussion Board for the Civil Air Patrol community," not a place to remind cadets of their place in the "food chain."

You know, I never really considered cadet participation and the like.

I don't see anything wrong with respecting boundaries (calling one "cadet" or "sir" in this case) or in expressing disagreement respectfully.

I think one thing that is a bit "over the line" is when we take an on-board issue and bring it into CAP.

CAP Talk, while fun, is not a CAP event. It is a rather informal gathering of CAP members in cyberspace. If a cadet or a senior says something and we then try to take it off of the board, that is a boundary I think we should not cross.

If a cadet (or senior) is overly disrespectful, I say suspend them from the board, don't approach their unit.

You nailed it Ma'am.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

My comments in red.

[EMT-83]

I was going to send this in a PM, but here goes...

We've seen this so many times before, where a cadet signs up for the forum and thinks it's his personal responsibility to post in every topic, regardless of any knowledge or expertise in the topic under discussion.

This would be a good time to go back and review your 200+ postings and see what you have really contributed to the conversation. Not a personal attack, but a request that you gain some understanding of why people may be upset. Your tone doesn't necessarily reflect your limited experience in the program.

This topic is sure to be locked at this point, but please accept this is as a constructive comment, and maybe slow down just a bit.

[Short Field]

If a cadet (or senior) is overly disrespectful, I say suspend them from the board, don't approach their unit.

Might be a good thought - but more than one member has gotten in trouble in their home unit based on what and how they posted something on CAP Talk.  This forum is read by a LOT of people in senior positions in a many many squadrons, groups, wings, and regions who never post. 

[SJFedor]

I think on CAPtalk everybody should be on the same level with one another, Sm or cadet.

In the words of ICENINE, "It's nice to want things...".

Welcome to the internet - "freedom of speech" does not equal "freedom from responsibility for what you say or how you say it".
It is a lesson hard-learned by many.

I'm not saying we should adopt a "fire and forget" mindset about posting, but that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and even though we don't have to agree with someones opinion, we should respect that they have that right.

You can have your opinion all day long.  That doesnt mean you have the right to voice it. Umm, excuse me? care to elaborate? Many a young cadet has learned that the hard way.  One of the draw backs of the internet.  In a SQ setting, you, as a C/SSgt would not typically be permitted to stand around and just shoot the breeze with Seniors about the things we discuss here. Well, since i'm the second highest ranking cadet in the squadron, and have good relations with my Commanders, we do talk about CAP related things. Here, you are able to because its the open internet.  So by coming on CAPTalk, cadets are afforded a privilege outside the realm of the Cadet/Senior relationship.  In my unit,  I would be talking to the DCC and asking why C/SSgt HGJunkie is out of place and not with his flight. Could you elaborate? I can't understand if your saying this would go on because it happened at Sq. or online.
You think we are equals because on CAPTalk, LTC Joe Smith can post a response and immediately after, C/B Yahoo can post (anonymously or not, their choice) telling LTC Smith hes full of himself.  Because of your access to us here on CAPTalk, you may think we are equals, but we are not.  If you have the word "Cadet" anywhere in your title as a CAP member, you are not a peer and are not equal.  You are a subordinate and I am your superior.  You are not any less important or any less valued.  In fact, I would say you are more "important" than any Senior Member.  However, do not forget your place in the food chain.  A lesson that will pay you dividends in the end.  BELIEVE ME! Really? Even though my cadet status only applies to me when conducting CAP official business? I think if a person can be mature about their posts and back up their POVs, arguments, etc, and contribute to the forum, then they should be equal to everyone on the forum ON THE FORUM.
This does not mean we cant have discussions. I know many cadets who are grown men and women and are very educated.  But again, superior vs. subordinate relationship until you switch to the Senior side. Yes, while conducting official CAP business.

Anyways, I thought this Forum was to act as "a discussion Board for the Civil Air Patrol community," not a place to remind cadets of their place in the "food chain."

You know, I never really considered cadet participation and the like.

I don't see anything wrong with respecting boundaries (calling one "cadet" or "sir" in this case) or in expressing disagreement respectfully.

I think one thing that is a bit "over the line" is when we take an on-board issue and bring it into CAP.

CAP Talk, while fun, is not a CAP event. It is a rather informal gathering of CAP members in cyberspace. If a cadet or a senior says something and we then try to take it off of the board, that is a boundary I think we should not cross.

If a cadet (or senior) is overly disrespectful, I say suspend them from the board, don't approach their unit.

You nailed it Ma'am.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

My comments in red.

And without going too far into it, you stated somewhere above that

my cadet status only applies to me when conducting CAP official business

Allow me to remind you this. You're in a public forum, representing yourself as a member of the Civil Air Patrol (as indicated by your insignia in your signature line), and as such, you are expected to conduct yourself in a professional manner as a CAP cadet, including understanding your place in the food chain. If you have knowledge of the subject matter, by all means, contribute to it, but as you are a younger, just-into-Phase 2 cadet, odds are you don't have a lot of subject knowledge on the in's and out's of how this organization works, and while your opinions should be used to judge what you read here, and using this to learn more, you probably need to do less talking and more learning.

Just because you're behind a computer screen and not sitting their in uniform (unless you're someone that does, in which case, to each their own) does not excuse you nor make you less responsible for your conduct and remembering your place in the food chain. This is all too true in real life, and this is something you'd be much better for learning early on. Many people have been subject to discipline, suspension, or firing from their jobs because of the stuff they put online. Just because you're not acting in the role when you post it, doesn't mean you're not still responsible for it.