Opinions on NB uniform proposals

[Hawk200]

Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

Then by your definition, the CSU is a military uniform.

Pants - USAF
Belt - USAF
Flight Cap - USAF
Wheel CAP - USAF
Grade Insignia - USAF
Waist jacket - USA/USN
Tie - USAF
Shoes - usually high-parade gloss, same as USAF.

Only thing not mil-spec is the shirt and service coats, but not everyone has a service coat.

Military-spec parts with CAP insingia = military uniform in your definition.

I know you simply want to argue the point, but answer me this: What branch of service wears the CSU in it's entirety with only their insignia to differentiate? I doubt you can show me one. Pieces and parts of military uniforms don't make it a military uniform.

I don't have a definition of a military uniform, the  branches of service do. Second, the certification on Air Force uniform items does not apply to CSU items. Never did, and couldn't. So your reasoning is flawed and twists the facts.

In the interest of not creating a free for all, I'm willing to drop the subject. There are facts, and there are opinions. Opinions vary, facts do not.

Overall, when it comes to the issues of facial hair, I've got no problem with them with the CSU. I don't have a problem with badges and decs with the CSU. It allows those who served to continue their wear in a paramilitary organization.

And even though I personally don't care for the CSU, I have to admit in good conscience that it is far more uniform than the blazer combination. You can have numerous different blazers and grey slacks and white shirts, each individual could be in compliance with the manual and still not look exactly like the person next to them wearing the same "uniform". The CSU eliminates this problem.

[Gunner C]

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

[James Shaw]

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

[Gunner C]

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

It wasn't gentlemanly.  My apologies.

[billford1]

Forgive me if this question has already been answered. Does the AF make the final call on eligibility to wear the CSU or the ribbons on it?  It seem like so much of what was debated and proposed for uniform changes is not on the table at all.  Did the AF take the proposals off the table or were they deleted by the "Uniform Team"?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Eaker mini medal: If the Mitchell, Earhart and Spaatz have mess-dress recognition, yeah, why has it taken so long? But that said...

NCGC mini medal: Why does every ribbon need to have a CAP miniature medal? In the Air Force, only medals have miniatures for the mess dress uniform. Many ribbons and awards don't. Of course, that means only three CAP commendations could be worn -- the SMV, BMV and DSM. Maybe it's time to reconsider what are medals and what aren't. (When I'm in my mess dress and Real Air Force officers are addressing me as "General" because of my medal stack, something's wrong.)

Gray female shoulder marks: An idea that, surprisingly, wasn't addressed until now?

Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Isn't the CSU dead, since ICLs only last 90 days? Unless we're picking and choosing which regulations to follow, anyway....

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: See previous entry.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Unnecessary.

CAP Astronaut Designator: Col. Boe's Air Force astronaut wings are quite enough. A set of CAP wings would only be created with one member in mind, so it doesn't make any sense at all.

Commander's Badge Wear: It's a great idea. It's also a great idea to nix the group commander's badge, since the idea is to recognize those who served as commanders, not at what level they serve. And I dare say bird colonels in CAP don't need them -- 9.5 out of 10 CAP colonels were wing commanders to begin with.

Flight suit grade devices: Ditch the plastic. Cloth, blue background, and get it over with, already.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Again: Isn't the CSU an illegal uniform by now?

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Doesn't make sense, but I have no real opinion.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Again, the CSU is an illegal uniform until it shows up in the CAPM 39-1, or unless Gen. Courter issues another ICL. This should be a moot point....

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: Yank the shoulder patches, already! All of them! We treat our Air Force utility uniforms like NASCAR jumpsuits or Boy Scout sashes, and it's sometimes ridiculous.

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Not a bad idea, as long as there's a phase-in period.

Truth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

Are you willing to tell the Air Force to allow their decs on civilian clothing? Because as far as the Air Force is concerned, the CSU and the blazer combos are civilian clothing. Their decorations, their insignia, their rules.

It seems like you believe that CAP is the one that disallows the wear of those items. They're not.  The blues are a variant of the Air Force uniform, no matter how much CAP says it's Air Force styled. Per 39-1, it has to be an Air Force approved item to wear. That's why decs are permitted.

I empathize with your having a disability that doesn't allow you to wear blues, I really do. But make sure you understand who the controlling party is on those rules. To be blunt, it's rather selfish to say "since I can't wear them, no one else should be able to either".  No one has taken  away what you earned. Put them in a shadow box, stick it in your office, people will see them.

As to sameness, I would agree. I may have missed an ICL or three, but only a few badges on one uniform, more on others, worn differently on various ones. Impractical, and not well thought out. I would be simpler to say: "XXXX Badge is worn one half inch above nametag on dress uniforms" rather than "XXXX Badge will be worn here on the blues, here on the CSU, here on the blazer." That seems a little loony to me.

Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

The American Legion and VFW wear their ribbons on their uniforms, and sometimes even on their hat, and yet, somehow, the Defense of the United States does not come to a screeching halt. 

I say that if I earned them, I wear them.  Just like my gray hair.

[Gunner C]

Sorry Kach, but CAP is somehow unworthy of wearing military awards and decorations.  Pardon me whilst I wretch.

Gunner

[JohnKachenmeister]

Astronaut Wings?  YES, YES, YES!!!!!!  It isn't about honoring one person. It is about the PR value and the value of the example to the cadets in recognizing CAP members' achievements in aerospace.

Military Badges and Ribbons on the TPU?  YES!  The non-concurrence of the NLO sounds almost like he's ASHAMED to have combat veterans as members of CAP.  I hope he reads this, because I'd like to tell him he is full of fecal excrement.  I would tell him to his face, but CAP Headquarters has been moved to an undisclosed location.

Lose the silver braid?  YES!  However, since I like to tell people that I am a banana-republic dictator and offer waitresses jobs as Interior Minister of the Republic of Parador instead of tipping them, this may have some impact on my finances.

[cap235629]

Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

Sorry folks, PHS no longer allows beards since January 2008. They're trying to align themselves with the armed forces.

Relevance?  The plan was to model the regs on their standards that at the time were the only current facial hair regs in the unifomed services.  Still a good standard in my opinion

[cap235629]

Military Badges and Ribbons on the TPU?  YES!  The non-concurrence of the NLO sounds almost like he's ASHAMED to have combat veterans as members of CAP.  I hope he reads this, because I'd like to tell him he is full of fecal excrement.  I would tell him to his face, but CAP Headquarters has been moved to an undisclosed location.

I just pray that this opinion isn't shared by the majority, it sure doesn't seem to be very open minded or fair to those who are veterans

[billford1]

Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

[Eclipse]

Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

No, simply because there isn't anyone quitting because of the uniforms.

Not when a $17 golf shirt still fills the bill.

[Rotorhead]

Do you suppose that many of the decision makers are concerned about retaining the hard working talent of the veterans who are quitting because of morale problems aggravated by issues which include confused uniform regulations?

No.

But nice try at derailing the thread.

[Rotorhead]

Truth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Bluelakes 13]

Truth is, there's too many options. If the National Board wants to play with the uniforms, it should have an eye for SIMPLIFYING and consolidating the complicated maze of CAP uniform combinations, not for accommodating everyone who wants their own bling.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

+ infinity!

[ThorntonOL]

Keep the Command Ribbon, it shows proof that that individual has earned it by being a Unit Commander or higher. Keep the badge but only for those who are currently in Command,
Now if they commanded previously to the current command position, they can wear the highest command ribbon or sticker (that two pronged pin) of their previous command(s) and the badge for their current level.
That's how I would solve that issue.

[lordmonar]

Keep the Command Ribbon, it shows proof that that individual has earned it by being a Unit Commander or higher. Keep the badge but only for those who are currently in Command,
Now if they commanded previously to the current command position, they can wear the highest command ribbon or sticker (that two pronged pin) of their previous command(s) and the badge for their current level.
That's how I would solve that issue.

??

The issue....is to try to bring CAP uniform regulations more in line with USAF policies.

[Flying Pig]

Someone mentioned earlier that police officer dont wear their military decorations on their police uniforms?  Id have to say, Yes we do.  Many agencies allow military decorations and badges to be worn on their police uniforms.  LAPD for one.  Also many others.  My department is authorizing it in the near future as well.

[ThorntonOL]

What part of our uniform regulations are we trying to get more in line and how?
We are not active duty, we're only civilians.
so what part of the agenda lists the items about getting in line with USAF policy.
(Can't see agenda file.)