Opinions on NB uniform proposals

[AlphaSigOU]

I know, opinions don't count for much but here's my take on the proposals put forward in the March NB agenda. Please feel free to add your opinions and thoughts on this thread and not litter other threads with unrelated uniform discussions. OK, here we go...

Eaker mini medal: About time they got off their duff and give proper recognition to former cadinks who completed all achievements in the cadet program but did not make it all the way to the Spaatz. The mini-medal may only be worn by senior members on mess dress, but that doesn't preclude giving it as a presentation item along with the certificate.

NCGC mini medal: OK, let's keep the color guard geeks happy... No problem with that.

Gray female shoulder marks: Apparently someone forgot about that... how many times I've seen female senior members have to tuck in or heavily modify gray shoulder marks, with less than stellar results? At least that will fix that problem.

Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use. Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

CAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

Commander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

Flight suit grade devices: I'd rather see the plastic grade insignia go the way of the dodo, but if a reliable supplier has been found, keep it around a little longer. If you wanna wear cloth grade on the bag, wear corporate blue. I already do. And it's not purple, it's dark blue.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Still needs some work so as not to enrage Ma Blue.

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Nix on badges, ribbons OK by me if the services don't have a cow over it.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire. If mini medals are approved, the bottom row of medals should not be worn below the lower seam of the welt pocket.

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Blue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

[FlyingTerp]

The priority should not be all these uniform proposals, but rather we need to update 39-1 with what CAP has today.  Its clear from these proposals that many in our leadship cannot keep track of 39-1 as written and of all the ICLs.

IMHO, the only 2 real issues, grey slides for females and plastic encased rank on flight suits, have been resolved by Vanguard.

[heliodoc]

Agree with Flying Terp

There has been entirely too much time being taken to approve all these uniform items to make us stand out from everybody just to maintain our "corporate culture"

How about spending a little more time with other agencies and getting our MOU's up to date with the States EM agencies, getting the 20+yr old Specialty Tracks up to date, making sure EVERY Wing is up on its FITS G1000 training and holding that programs feet to the fire.

It is time for the CAP leadership to stop worrying about every little bling, uniform, and new awards to be presented to the membership.....

Conserve our membership resources in this time of layooffs and corporate handouts and get to the real work.

Those "volunteers" at the NEB and NHQ- CAP could really spend a little more time on the important stuff..

AND by the way  get rid of those SILLY plastic encased insignia.... the REAL MILITARY got rid of 'em a LONG time ago. 

[MIKE]

Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Sweaters and cardigans with corporate service uniform: Still needs some work so as not to enrage Ma Blue.

Military badges and ribbons on CSU/grays: Nix on badges, ribbons OK by me if the services don't have a cow over it.

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire. If mini medals are approved, the bottom row of medals should not be worn below the lower seam of the welt pocket.

Blue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Dropping the CSU/TPU from the next batch of ICL revisions solves all of these issues.    Non-concur on military badges and ribbons on the TPU.  Keep it CAP only like the aviator shirt... Then you have no issue with it not being authorized by [insert service uniform regulation].  Seriously, just call it a mistake and move on.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use. Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

As one who was wearing this jacket as both the AF style lightweight-blue jacket and the Coast Guard Auxiliary windbreaker, don't care for the embroidery.

CAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

I don't really think this is needed... either wear the military badge on the AF-style uniform, or wear the lapel pin on the blazer.

Commander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

Ditch the Group Commanders badge.  Mirror USAF policy  for wear of the one badge... i.e. Col and below.  Getting rid of the Command Service Ribbon solves the Community Service Ribbon issue, even if I thought that was lame.

Flight suit grade devices: I'd rather see the plastic grade insignia go the way of the dodo, but if a reliable supplier has been found, keep it around a little longer. If you wanna wear cloth grade on the bag, wear corporate blue. I already do. And it's not purple, it's dark blue.

Stubbornness means a missed opportunity IMO... They had the dark blue flight suit grade already ready.  Could have been either or like the blue bags.

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

Never did like that commanders turned around and made an "optional" patch mandatory, so I say get rid of the [darn] things.  This propposal is unclear as to it's actual purpose... be it ranger bling, or other unauthorized patches coming out of "local" actvities... but non-concur anyway.

And on the BDU tapes, and the patches... stop screwing with the BDU and let it die an honorable death... Wait for ABUs.

[Major Carrales]

MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Getting rid of the CSU based on purely the purid "political" reasons of an already bygone era would constitute the wasting of likely tens of thousdands of volunteer dollars.  I do not own the uniform, however, it is something many CAP Officers have made an investment on.

[A.Member]

MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Not in our Wing.  I could count the number of CSUs on one hand with fingers to spare.  YMMV.

[DC]

MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Getting rid of the CSU based on purely the purid "political" reasons of an already bygone era would constitute the wasting of likely tens of thousdands of volunteer dollars.  I do not own the uniform, however, it is something many CAP Officers have made an investment on.

CAP should buy the uniforms back, then send HWSRN the bill!

I do agree though, the damage has been done, and dropping the uniform would be a tremendous waste of volunteer dollars. However, I would certainly like to see the emphasis placed on it dropped. When I joined CAP nearly everyone who met the weight and grooming standards wore USAF-style. THose who didn't wore the white and greys and the blazer, and they didn't gripe about it.

BTW, haven't the ICLs authorizing the CSU expired yet?

[Hawk200]

Eaker mini medal: About time they got off their duff and give proper recognition to former cadinks who completed all achievements in the cadet program but did not make it all the way to the Spaatz. The mini-medal may only be worn by senior members on mess dress, but that doesn't preclude giving it as a presentation item along with the certificate.

Why not? Not everyone gets the Spaatz. I've known plenty of folks that just missed it, so I don't see any problems. Presentation idea sounds good too.

Gray female shoulder marks: Apparently someone forgot about that... how many times I've seen female senior members have to tuck in or heavily modify gray shoulder marks, with less than stellar results? At least that will fix that problem

Agreed. A lot of our insignia are "one size fits or it doesn't" items. We would have more professional appearance by having a few things made in appropriate sizes.

[Silver commissioning braid on the CSU service dress: Just looks plain gaudy. Either remove it altogether or choose another complementary color. The AF may not like us having dark blue braid, further making our CSU even closer to AF-style. If another color is chosen, make it either black (but slightly wider than the current 1/2") or ultramarine blue. Red, while it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage, just does NOT look good on the dark blue color.

Agreed on "gaudy". No problem with blue braid, the Air Force has indicated that they don't care. Black wouldn't bother me, either.

But "slightly wider"? Disagree. No reason to create or hunt down a source for something that's out of the traditional sizes. Go with what is available.

Also agree on a red braid issue. I don't think anyone would even seriously try it.

[Silver chinstrap on the bus driver hat: No biggie if we go back to leather. Our cap device is distinctive enough that it shouldn't have any confusion with the AF cap device. Besides, the silver chinstrap tends to be fragile.

Highly agree.

Lightweight blue jacket embroidery: Nix on that. I wouldn't mind a CAP emblem instead of the Hap Arnold 'tangram', thus making it probably acceptable for corporate uniform use.

I wouldn't mind, would probably do the same, but I would follow the AF and make it strictly optional. Then again, the same embroidery on jackets and the trenchcoat might make it distinctive enough to wear with corporates.

[Did you notice the special jackets worn by the Presidential Airlift Group on the recent Air Force one TV special? They're nothing more than the AF blue lightweight jacket with name and presidential seal embroidered on it. (Yeah, there's one draped on the CinC's AF1 chair but that's usually worn only on the airplane.)

Actually, incorrect. I've seen those jackets close up, and there is as much difference between those jackets and the standard lightweight jacket as there is between Air Force general officer lightweight jackets and the standard ones. We don't have a need for it, so it's really a non-issue. Personally, I think our Generals ought to be able to wear the Air Force General Officer windbreakers, but's it not really a need, just a fancy.

CAP Astronaut Designator: Congrats on Col Boe being the first current CAP member to fly in space. He already gets the shooting star on the AF pilot wings and the gold shooting star lapel pin for civilian clothes. But to create a new designator CAP-wide? Very poorly thought out. I can see a one-of-a-kind presentation badge being presented to Col Boe and other future CAP astronauts, but not a general wear aeronautical rating or badge.

Agreed. No reason to create an insignia for one person. And he has the option of wearing his AF wings on CAP blue uniforms. A set of wings just for him is unnecessary.

The Air Force says the following of the astronaut qualifier (AFI 11-402, Table 2-7, Note 7): "When an AF member qualifies for the Astronaut qualifier, the Astronaut Qualifier symbol may be worn (superimposed) on the rated badge they are eligible to wear. This is not a separate USAF rating."

Allowing that designator on CAP wings, I wouldn't have any heartburn with. But it could create an image that CAP personnel could become astronauts. Probably best that he just stick with his AF wings that he's allowed the designator on.

Commander's Badge Wear: No problem with that, even if it means ditching the Command Service Ribbon. (It looks almost identical to the Community Service Ribbon.) If they should want to add a 'toilet seat' to the star of the 'group guru' badge to denote wing or higher command service later on, I don't have a problem. IIRC the NB/NEC badge is only worn during the term of office - please correct me if I'm wrong. Also clarify wear of the CC badge on flight suit name tags to sitting commanders only.

I wouldn't have any problem with mirroring Air force wear, and allowing folks to "re-use" the badge in the same manner. Why make them take off a badge and replace it with a ribbon?

I don't care for the practice of different badges for different levels. Doesn't seem to be necesasary to me. One badge, move it below the pocket when you move on.

Agreed on no CC badge on a flightsuit nametag unless sitting commander. Would avoid confusion. Mirroring AF wear on blues would indicate who a current commander is. Per the ABU message, command insignia is not authorized on the ABU. Puzzling, though, a First Sergeant could wear an insignia (stripes) to indicate his status, but a commander can't? Curious as to the reasoning, but if that's how they want it...

Wear of CAP mini-medals on CSU: Yes. As it currently stands, the CSU with black bow tie, ribbons and no nametag is nothing more than semiformal. There is no CSU equivalent to mess dress other than appropriate civilian attire.

Medals, yes. Mini medals, no. I just don't think minis look right on a coat like that. The nearest jacket pattern is the Army Blue. Full size would look far better. But, we don't have those for all medals (then again, we have a mini medal for almost every ribbon we have. It can be too much. I think we ought to reduce the number of medals to actuals, both to reduce the abundance and give some of the higher ones meaning, but that's another topic altogether.)

Optional patches on BDU left shoulder: We need a uniform wear standard - either all wings wear wing patches or all do not. This is just a 'legalization' of the wear of the ranger school patch on the left shoulder. No big deal for me.

Don't really see the point of shoulder patches anymore. Exept for enlisted rank, the AF puts everything on the front of the uniform, not the sides. Not sure I'd care to see the ES patch on ABU's. I still think the idea of a General ES badge has merit. Would reduce the amount of real estate on the uniform. Would be cheaper too.

Never saw the point of an Army oriented flag either. I've very rarely seen an airman in an Air Force uniform wearing a right handed flag. I know the Army oriented stuff is widely available, but it's still an Army practice. Stick the flag on the left side, you can use flightsuit flags for the purpose.

Blue parka for CSU: Agree on avoiding blue as the color, as it might be confused with Ma Blue, though the actual issue N2B parka is sage green (do they make it in other colors?)

Blue parka? Hadn't seen that. And yes, you can get get both N2Bs, and N3Bs in numerous other colors.

Changing over to dark blue tapes on BDU: Dark blue looks better on BBDU. I'd wait until the BDU/ABU issue is reslolved before picking a tape color for those uniforms.

Agreed. Would match AF stripes better, officer rank is available that matches as well. Probably best to leave the BDU alone, it's eventually going away.

BTW, anyone know where I can get a copy of the newest NB agenda? Haven't seen it yet.

[Major Carrales]

MIKE, have you been to a Wing Conference lately?  Many times the CSUs greatly outnumber the USAF Style.

Not in our Wing.  I could count the number of CSUs on one hand with fingers to spare.  YMMV.

Which wing is that?

[cap235629]

I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

I am in favor of the all grey epaulets for all uniforms and discontinuing the of the white/grey all together and allowing khakis with the polo shirts.


As a veteran who cannot wear the AF style uniform(which is directly relates to my service connected disability), the no ribbon rule actually BURNS MY 4TH POINT OF CONTACT! If the argument is we need to consider the other services.... then do NOT ALLOW THEM ON ANY UNIFORMS INCLUDING THE AF STYLE.  All or nothing, let's be fair.  Oh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

I am in favor of the mini medals on the CSU for formal wear

[Eclipse]

I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

What "grooming adjustments".  Everything but weight applies to the CSU, which is the point of the CSU.  Doing that to the whites would defeat their purpose.

As to the ribbons, the prohibition of military ribbons on the corporate distinctive uniforms has been in place since they brought the distinctive uniforms into the catalog. 

[davidsinn]

I am saddened to see that none of the grooming adjustments for the CSU made it through.  There was talk of having CAP grooming standards apply to ALL corporate uniforms including the CSU. This is minor however and I will shave if it is required.

What "grooming adjustments".  Everything but weight applies to the CSU, which is the point of the CSU.  Doing that to the whites would defeat their purpose.

As to the ribbons, the prohibition of military ribbons on the corporate distinctive uniforms has been in place since they brought the distinctive uniforms into the catalog. 

If you change the grooming on the white/blues you can ditch the white/grays and possibly the blazer which is a good thing IMHO. The grays just don't look professional to me.

[cap235629]

There was talk during the last round of uniform committee posts that neatly trimmed beards in keeping with the National Public Health Service would be allowed, again no big deal, but momma likes the goatee and remember happy wife, happy life.   

The ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

[billford1]

When they introduced the blue slacks aviator shirt uniform it seemed like CAP was trying to move in the right direction. I bought the uniform before NB decided to exclude folks like myself who have a goatee. Same deal for me with the Wife. She likes the goatee. She was horrified the one time she saw me without it. Anymore when I go to CDRs Call or any other CAP event the only uniform I wear is the BBDU. I wonder what the reactions must have been to the ambitious uniform changes proposed last year. Has anyone heard?

[BGNightfall]

Oh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Hawk200]

The ribbons issue has been a point of contention for me since I rejoined CAP after a 10 year break (the ensuing years is when the corporate uniforms came into being with regard to the white/grey, BBDU etc.)  When the CSU was introduced I had high hopes of keeping Ma Blue happy but also seeing parity across the board.  It hasn't happened.  Kinda makes me feel like some folks think they are more CAP than others.

I can understand and advocate having 1 and only 1 alternative to each of the AF style uniforms, but everything else should be the same, INCLUDING what can be worn on the uniform

Are you willing to tell the Air Force to allow their decs on civilian clothing? Because as far as the Air Force is concerned, the CSU and the blazer combos are civilian clothing. Their decorations, their insignia, their rules.

It seems like you believe that CAP is the one that disallows the wear of those items. They're not.  The blues are a variant of the Air Force uniform, no matter how much CAP says it's Air Force styled. Per 39-1, it has to be an Air Force approved item to wear. That's why decs are permitted.

I empathize with your having a disability that doesn't allow you to wear blues, I really do. But make sure you understand who the controlling party is on those rules. To be blunt, it's rather selfish to say "since I can't wear them, no one else should be able to either".  No one has taken  away what you earned. Put them in a shadow box, stick it in your office, people will see them.

As to sameness, I would agree. I may have missed an ICL or three, but only a few badges on one uniform, more on others, worn differently on various ones. Impractical, and not well thought out. I would be simpler to say: "XXXX Badge is worn one half inch above nametag on dress uniforms" rather than "XXXX Badge will be worn here on the blues, here on the CSU, here on the blazer." That seems a little loony to me.

Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

[arajca]

The DoD ribbon issue is why I recommended to my wing commander that NHQ ask each service (USA, USAF, USMC, USN, USCG) for express permission to wear thier respective ribbons on the CAP corporate uniforms. If they say no, so be it, but at least then there will be no question about it.

Now, I know someone will raise the possibility that one or more services may prohibit wear of their ribbons and/or badges on ANY CAP uniform, so we shouldn't bring our current policies to their attention. That's a BS excuse. If a service decides they do not want us wearing their decorations, that is their right. After all, they're their decorations.

[Eclipse]

Addressing beards and the CSU, I don't see why it was restricted anyway. A neatly trimmed beard or goatee would look fine with it. It may look like a military uniform, but's it not one. Why should beards be restricted? I would put some limits on hair length though. A three foot ponytail wouldn't look right with any uniform, be the wearer male or female.

Its a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

The issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

Its fine the way it is, wear the whites or hit the barber, we're lucky we have a corporate option at all.

[Hawk200]

The DoD ribbon issue is why I recommended to my wing commander that NHQ ask each service (USA, USAF, USMC, USN, USCG) for express permission to wear thier respective ribbons on the CAP corporate uniforms. If they say no, so be it, but at least then there will be no question about it.

I agree. Asking is completely free. Personally, I don't have a problem with mil decs worn on Corporate uniforms, and I think it would be a good thing. But we need the permission, and shouldn't be asking forgiveness.

Now, I know someone will raise the possibility that one or more services may prohibit wear of their ribbons and/or badges on ANY CAP uniform, so we shouldn't bring our current policies to their attention. That's a BS excuse. If a service decides they do not want us wearing their decorations, that is their right. After all, they're their decorations.

I agree. If they don't want it, fine. By asking, we're making them tell us "No", instead of just assuming it.

[RiverAux]

How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago?