OK have ORANGE uniforms been seriously proposed for ES?

[Nomex Maximus]

It seems really obvious to me as a new member but I will ask the question anyhow.

Has an orange uniform (flight suits and BDU style) been seriously advanced for consideration? We are in the search and rescue business and emergency services. We are not trying to hide but are trying to be seen, so we should be wearing uniforms that make us easy to see. CAPM-39 figure 2-17 note 10 requires an orange vest be worn with the BDUs for ground teams. I would suggest a bright orange colored nomex flight suit with white on blue insignia and something similar for the ground team uniforms. And on the back of the uniforms, in large capital letters "CIVIL AIR PATROL - EMERGENCY SERVICES".

I was on a wing exercise mission a few weeks ago and I believe that the Coast Guard Aux pilots were wearing orange and I thought that it made a lot of sense.

Your comments?

--Nomex

[JohnKachenmeister]

It has been proposed, but not seriously.

Orange flight suits used to be optional, but I don't think they are anymore.

We certainly would never be confused with the Air Force.

We MAY, however, be confused with clients of the various correctional institutions, and frankly, I'd rather people confuse me with the Air Force.

Put "CAP" on the back?  You forget that CAP is a better-kept secret than the Manhattan Project.

"Correctional Agency Prisoner?" 

[LtCol White]

NEVER!!!

[Nomex Maximus]

Well, it would sure beat parading around in the woods during hunting season in camoflage green or in the dark in navy blue...

[Eagle400]

I don't think orange uniforms should be used for GT, but I do believe that the blue BDU should be required.  Camouflage is horrible for SAR, even if the wearer is wearing an orange vest.  The idea is to be seen, so you don't become a victim yourself.  Wearing an orange vest with a BDU for SAR is like being a tree in a forest with a little bit of orange painted on it.  The odds of being found are a lot less.    

[Hawk200]

Well, it would sure beat parading around in the woods during hunting season in camoflage green or in the dark in navy blue...

Or you not wearing the mandatory orange vest? The one that is required when you're doing field operations?

[Hawk200]

I don't think orange uniforms should be used for GT, but I do believe that the blue BDU should be required.  Camouflage is horrible for SAR, even if the wearer is wearing an orange vest.  The idea is to be seen, so you don't become a victim yourself.  Wearing an orange vest with a BDU for SAR is like being a tree in a forest with a little bit of orange painted on it.  The odds of being found are a lot less.    

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

[Dragoon]

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

Unless, of course, you choose to wear the vest underneath gobs of OD green webgear and an Alice or MOLLE pack.  Kind of defeats the purpose...

[Eagle400]

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  What if all your webgrear is hiding the vest?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.    

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange.  

[Hawk200]

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.    

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange.  

What position are you going to in where the vest is hidden, but you can see the rest? Besides, it's dark blue. It's also a scientific fact that the color blue is the most difficult for the human eye to register. And currently, the US military, in general, doesn't use any camouflage that's 100 percent effective in any environment anyway. You're not going to get lost in the woods, unless you're trying to.

Bright yellow vests I would agree with. As long as they're ANSI type vests (which means retina searing lime colors, essentially). They work better at night too.

[Hawk200]

Unless, of course, you choose to wear the vest underneath gobs of OD green webgear and an Alice or MOLLE pack.  Kind of defeats the purpose...

Which is kinda stupid to do. That's like saying "No-one will lose sight of me! I'm wearing my bright orange underwear!"

You may think it's an out there statement, but I've known a few geniuses that believed it.

[sschwab]

In the air, as a scanner, I have easily pick out a line of orange vest walking in the woods.   On the ground in my BDU's I wear an orange vest, and even under my ALICE gear it can be seen. 

Personally, I think the BDU's are fine.  If you are trying to be found, a small bit of orange still stands out.  To be safe, just keep that signal mirror with you, as those are amazing easy to see from the air.

When it comes to looks, I think the BDUs and sage flight suits look professional, and helps CAP members standout as an organized, possibly even trained, group of people.

[SarDragon]

Hey, Smitty, check out the slides that are part of the aircrew training materials. A couple of them have aerial shots of GT folks, and the guys in the orange vests show up really well. And, the folks in the camo BDUs show up, too, but not as well. Concealment depends on more than the clothing you're wearing.

[floridacyclist]

In the air, as a scanner, I have easily pick out a line of orange vest walking in the woods.   On the ground in my BDU's I wear an orange vest, and even under my ALICE gear it can be seen.

Many of us have  ditched ALICE for MOLLE or other specialty vests.

At any rate, as an employee of the FL Dept of Corrections, I can assure you that our inmates do not wear orange, they wear blue.

[Eagle400]

And, the folks in the camo BDUs show up, too, but not as well.

Hey SarDragon, that's the point!  How about khaki BDUs?  Shows up perfectly well and are readily available.  Another idea is orange boonie hats - those show up very well from the air.  I have met with at least one mission pilot who can attest to that.

Ground Teams wearing khaki BDUs, yellow ANSI-approved vests, and orange boonie hats - now that would be ideal!  Might not look very military, but certainly would stand out.       

Concealment depends on more than the clothing you're wearing.

I know.  It also depends on the area around you, and how your clothing stands out against your surroundings.  Tie that in with the weather conditions, and that could either simplify or complicate things.   

[O-Rex]

Assuming that we would want to wear these horrors, consider cost/availability: Orange BDU's are not on the market (watch some argumentative nit-picker post a link to someone selling them) and I haven't seen an orange flightsuit since the '70's (not counting the cu$tom color$ and applicable price$ available from flightsuits.com)

Point being that neither are available in abundance at your corner Army/Navy Surplus.

But I'm sure that Vanguard could have them in  the proverbial" couple of months."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Somebody found an orange tactical vest, but the cost was something like $275.

[SarDragon]

The CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1 authorized a GT uniform consisting of:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange, two pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) Blue CAP Field Uniform trousers.
(c) Dark blue web belt with black subdued buckle (USAF style).
(d) Boots appropriate for conditions. The Ground Team Leader will be the final authority for the suitability of boots.
(e) Outer garments appropriate for weather and safety conditions.
(2) NOTES: Only the following insignia and patches will be worn.
(a) Civil Air Patrol Blue Breast Badge is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag - cloth is worn centered immediately above the right shirt
pocket (only the last name is used).
(c) CAP Aviation Badges and Ground Team Badge.-.Cloth, are worn 1/2 inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape. If both devices are worn, the aviation badge is placed 1/2 inch above the Ground Team Badge.
(d) A cloth Specialty Badge (Communications, EMT, CPR, etc) may be worn
centered on the left shirt pocket.
(e) A unit patch may be worn centered on the right shirt pocket.
(f) The California Wing patch is worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left sleeve. See Figure 5-12, below.
(g) The NASAR SARTECH II or OES Search and Rescue patch, with or without
attached tab, may be worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve.
(3) Insignia NOT authorized on the Ground Team Uniform combination:
(a) Grade insignia.
(b) CAP Lapel/Collar insignia
(c) Military Aviation Badges
(d) Metal insignia.

Let's discuss this on its merits, and stay away from bashing CAWG for having it in the supplement in the first place.

The orange shirts are available at most industrial safety stores, and are commonly called "CalTrans shirts" because of their ubiquity on the highway crews. They are actually more comfortable than a BDU shirt (lighter weight), but are slightly less functional because of the lack of pockets.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I'm fairly satisfied with the visibility of GT members wearing vests both from the perspective of an aircrew member trying to spot them as well as a ground team member trying to stay in line with others. 

Theoretically wearing orange clothing may slightly increase actual effectiveness, but thats about it.

[O-Rex]

The CAWG supplement to CAPM 39-1 authorized a GT uniform consisting of:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange, two pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) Blue CAP Field Uniform trousers.
(c) Dark blue web belt with black subdued buckle (USAF style).
(d) Boots appropriate for conditions. The Ground Team Leader will be the final authority for the suitability of boots.
(e) Outer garments appropriate for weather and safety conditions.
(2) NOTES: Only the following insignia and patches will be worn.
(a) Civil Air Patrol Blue Breast Badge is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag - cloth is worn centered immediately above the right shirt
pocket (only the last name is used).
(c) CAP Aviation Badges and Ground Team Badge.-.Cloth, are worn 1/2 inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape. If both devices are worn, the aviation badge is placed 1/2 inch above the Ground Team Badge.
(d) A cloth Specialty Badge (Communications, EMT, CPR, etc) may be worn
centered on the left shirt pocket.
(e) A unit patch may be worn centered on the right shirt pocket.
(f) The California Wing patch is worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left sleeve. See Figure 5-12, below.
(g) The NASAR SARTECH II or OES Search and Rescue patch, with or without
attached tab, may be worn 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve.
(3) Insignia NOT authorized on the Ground Team Uniform combination:
(a) Grade insignia.
(b) CAP Lapel/Collar insignia
(c) Military Aviation Badges
(d) Metal insignia.

Let's discuss this on its merits, and stay away from bashing CAWG for having it in the supplement in the first place.

The orange shirts are available at most industrial safety stores, and are commonly called "CalTrans shirts" because of their ubiquity on the highway crews. They are actually more comfortable than a BDU shirt (lighter weight), but are slightly less functional because of the lack of pockets.

so if you just happen to be in the CAP standart BBDU's and "the ballon goes up" you put on the orange smock, no?

It all sounds strangely attractive, in an Austin Powers sort-of way. . . . .