Military Badges

[LtCol White]

I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. 

Because they are military awards and we are a military affiliated entity. BSA is not.

[Stonewall]

Sounds like jump wings are in a grey area in CAPM 39-1.  I assume CAP intended them to fall under "US Military Aeronautical Badges".  I'm not taking them off.  Molon Lave!

Jump wings are not in a grey area.  USAF does place the parachutist badge in the area of "aeronautical badges".

[DNall]

Welcome aboard Sgt. Pretty simple on this one.

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway? 

You're serious right?

1) military-style & controlled unfirom considered by the military to be a military uniform.
2) Because it is an AF-style uniform & goes by the same rules as AF uniforms.
3) cause it's just the right thing to do, and you know it, so get over it.

how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?

You understand ranger skills are EXTREMELY applicable to ground team training? Land nav, movemetn planning... come on, you know it instantly makes them one of the best GT instructors in the state.

I'm in the Air National Guard and have seen all of the above on Air Force uniforms.  Some may point at me and say I'm a hypocrite, but I say if you can wear it on the USAF uniform you can wear it on the CAP uniform.

I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.

The CAP rule is very simple. It says we do whatever the AF reg says & how it says it. That should be pretty clear. Where this gets complicated is the reg is outdated & includes a chart of examples that is not really current anymore. They can update the reg, and that may be happening here in the next couple years to cover all the recent changes & create some stability. However, if they do update it to align with the current AF reg then people's badges would have to come off rather than allowing you to put more things on. Susie Parker does her best to manage the situation when issues come up. If that's not who you talked to, it's supposed to be.

Now I don't necessarily think that's a good policy. I tend to think we should be fairly inclusive of other service items, however, the AF really wants you to ONLY wear the AF uniform plus CAP badges. They're in charge on that issue, so nothing really we can do about it.

What you can get away with in CAP, or ANG, or AD for that matter is a dif story.

[Stonewall]

I am not trying to belittle your accomplishments in any way, but just a question out of curiosity...

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

While you should be proud of your accomplishments in the military, how does showing that you are/were an Army Ranger have any bearing on anything you do in CAP?

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your accomplishments, just curious as to your reasoning, and generate some discussion amongst the membership here. 

First, BSA is not a paramilitary organization.  CAP is.

Its no different than when I switched from the Army to the Air National Guard, I kept most of my ribbons and badges.  But even the Air Force, like CAP has limits, as there should be.

CAP = AF Auxiliary, thus we follow the AF's lead on uniform wear and guidance.  There are some differences, like wing patches on the left shoulder, but that's part of the CAPness of CAP.

To me, it isn't about me having served my country.  I did that back when I was a cadet.  If CAP regs said you can't wear military badges/ribbons, I wouldn't.  No big deal.  In fact, I don't wear military ribbons in CAP.  That would be out of control.

I'm even missing one or two:


But, since CAP does allow for the wear of military badges, I choose to wear 2 military badges and 2 CAP badges.

Above the pocket:  Jump Wings and Master GTM Badge
On the pocket:  OSD Badge (left) and Master CP Rating (right)

It has nothing to do with being an Army Ranger or any job in the military.  It demonstrates a broader knowledge of the military as a whole.  Uniforms, regardless of Boy Scouts or the Marine Corps are a way of showing a) who you belong to, b) a little something about yourself, c) that you're part of a team.  If no one wore their ribbons, military or CAP, or zero badges, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.  But then why wear rank?  Why wear uniforms?  Some of it is heritage, some of it is just the regs.

When I was 13 I joined the boy scouts.  But something was missing.  CAP afforded me that missing link in my childhood that I loved so much; military, discipline, and respect.

[Stonewall]

I don't know if you mean recently, or prior to this last reg, but that may be. However, the new one is a LOT more restrictive. Basicially (with a couple exceptions) no army badges unless you are physicially attached to an Army unit in your CAP capacity, which isn't possible in CAP. The same thing apples to AF cop/fire/recruiter/etc type badges that can only be worn while pysically on that duty.

The CAP rule is very simple. It says we do whatever the AF reg says & how it says it. That should be pretty clear.

Look at table 6-5, Page 116 in this link:  http://level2.cap.gov/documents/M39_1_chap_6_sec_B.pdf

This is as of 2005.  I'd say for CAP that's pretty darn up to date.  In it, it specifies Army-specific badges such as Air Assault, Pathfinder and SCUBA.  Even says you can wear the Secretary of Defense ID badge, which isn't even a qualification badge, just a badge saying you spent one year serving directly under the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

[DNall]

right, I mean the latest AF reg. It was changed to significantly reduce the number of other service badges that can be worn. The CAP reg says we'll follo wthat, whatever it is, then provides a chart of what was at the time authorized. That chart has yet to be updated to the newer AF rules.

Again, I'm not saying CAP shouldn't have more broad & open rules, but I don't get to make those rules, and in fact I don't think CAP does either.

[Stonewall]

Absolutely, and that's what I said on the first page here.

Air Force personnel may wear Army patches, i.e. unit patches and tabs only while assigned to Army units, such as TACPs.  Once they leave that unit/duty and return to an Air Force unit, those patches have to come off, including combat patches.

I just didn't include things like pathfinder badges, air assault, etc.  However, pretty much the only badges not authorized for wear on the AF uniform outside of being assigned to an Army unit are the Pathfinder and Air Assault badge. 

And like you said, things like the Fire Protection shield and Security Police shield (different from the skill badges worn above the pocket) are only worn while performing those duties.  Which means, you can't wear them in CAP.  I don't think anyone argued that one.

EDIT:  I just referenced the AFI for USAF uniforms and it does [now] speficy that the CAB and CIB may only be worn while assigned to other services.

That being said, they don't mention, or I haven't gotten that far yet, whether or not if you're prior service.  Specifically with the CIB/CAB/CMB.  All the people I saw that wore them were prior Army.  I've also seen AF personnel volunteer to support the Army in OEF/OIF get a "ceremonial CAB" pinned on for their support.  I'm wondering if it's those guys they're refering to that can only wear them while assigned to that service.  Either way, for CAP, the CIB/CMB are still authorized.

[Sgt. Savage]

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.

JIm

[RogueLeader]

Why should military awards, decorations, badges, tabs, etc, be authorized for wear on the CAP uniform anyway?  When you join boyscouts, you don't get to wear the "Ranger Tab," or your "CIB."  So why such a hard push for the CAP uniform?

No hard push. Just trying to make sure that the CAB is included in authorized badges. Everything else was authorized prior to my joining this fine organization. Since many of our returning service men and women have been awarded the CAB (Combat Action Badge for those who aren't familiar) it seem it should be included as it paralels the CMB and CIB, both of which are already autorized.

JIm

Good asking questions is a wonderful thing, as well as finding out what the reasoning is.  If we don't know the answer, we try to find it out for you.

[Sgt. Savage]

I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine

[RogueLeader]

I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine

Whats your rack look like?

[Stonewall]

I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine

That's what she said.

Funny thing though, I got like 3 ribbons simply for transfering to the ANG.  My Expert Marksmanship Badge turned into a ribbon as did the 3 year service stripes.  Then I had to take my Army Superior Unit award and put in with the rest of the ribbons, then I got the GWOT medal, which isn't shown.  I also got an AF achievement medal since that image was put together.  I know, a bit cheesey but I didn't do it.

Like I said, I wear my military ribbons on my military uniform and CAP ribbons on my CAP uniform.  Well, service dress.  Its a faux paux for AF [type] officers to wear ribbons on their blues shirts.

[Stonewall]

I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine

Whats your rack look like?

Not sure if you can see it without being a member or signing in, but there are profiles on military.com....

Just checked, I guess I can't link it.

But trust me, his fruit salad is something to be proud of.

[RogueLeader]

I think I'm jealous... Kirt's rack is bigger than mine

Whats your rack look like?

Not sure if you can see it without being a member or signing in, but there are profiles on military.com....

Just checked, I guess I can't link it.

But trust me, his fruit salad is something to be proud of.

Can you copy the pic, and post that?

[Stonewall]

Nah, its several different images.

Just picture like 9 ribbons, 2 unit awards, pathfinder badge, sr parachutist badge, EIB, CIB, air assault and a Ranger Tab.  Oh, and while its not on their, Combat 3RD Ranger Bn Scroll.

[RogueLeader]

Yeah, that is a nice fruit salad.  I just have a couple CAP slices on mine.

[stillamarine]

So. I'm assuming that my Naval Parachutist Wings (Gold Wings) are not authorized with the CAP uniform but I can wear the basic jump wings?

[Stonewall]

So. I'm assuming that my Naval Parachutist Wings (Gold Wings) are not authorized with the CAP uniform but I can wear the basic jump wings?

You know, I don't know.  But we have a former HM2 who did his entire time with Force and he wears them.  Hard to see, but check out his picture:



But I'd venture to say someone, somewhere would tell you to wear the basic Army parachutist badge vs. the Navy Jump Wings.  YMMV.  CAP folks are permitted to wear Navy aviator wings and those are gold, not sure why you couldn't wear the gold jump wings.

[Sgt. Savage]

Little Salad. Most of it came from being the first in the chow line.

[RogueLeader]

Little Salad. Most of it came from being the first in the chow line.

Really, they have a ribbon for being at the head of the chow line?