Overweight CAP members in AF-style uniforms poll

[PHall]

Now that I know that Ned is checking in on the discussion. 

Is there a process where the membership can appeal to the NUC to bring back the CSU outside of the regular Chain of Command?  I've made the request and as far as I can tell it's gone nowhere.

Read the 39-1. It says that ALL suggested changes must go up the chain of command. It doesn't mention any exceptions.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Now that I know that Ned is checking in on the discussion. 

Is there a process where the membership can appeal to the NUC to bring back the CSU outside of the regular Chain of Command?  I've made the request and as far as I can tell it's gone nowhere.

Read the 39-1. It says that ALL suggested changes must go up the chain of command. It doesn't mention any exceptions.

I think that Colonel Ned Lee respects that chain of command enough that, while he may bring up what he reads here with his colleagues, I think he would also say to use the chain.

Having said that, I just got my issue of CAP Volunteer.  In it, our National Commander, Major General Charles Carr, says "You can contact me anytime on the 'Ask The Commander' link on eServices."

I have often wondered what and how the General intends the usage of that resource.  I do not think he would approve of using it to circumvent the chain of command.

However, I also sympathise with SARDOC in that I have definite, outlined proposals, worded in CAP-ese (I have a Master rating in Administration, after all! ), not to bring back the CSU (I do not think that will ever happen, as much as I would like otherwise) to make minimum changes to the current aviator kit, most of which (as PHall correctly notes! ) have been aired here on CT.  I am sceptical that my proposals would ever make it past Wing, which is why I have not submitted them.

Any proposals can and do "go nowhere," as SARDOC says, and we are not obligated to be told why, as with the ending of the CSU itself.

Part of me is debating whether to use MGen Carr's link to at least get a proposal started.  However, the odds are extremely good that I will not do so.  Why?  Because, after my years of experience with CAP, the CGAUX and ANG, I think one very quick way to not get an idea respected/considered is to "jump the chain."

[Devil Doc]

I wasnt in CAP when the CSU was Authorized then Not Authorized. The only thing that seems to get me is there was no "Specific" reason why it was taken away. Im sure that if CAP gave a reason it would pacify the people that really liked it. If a reason is also given, maybe it can help to find other uniforms or ways to help solve the blazer issue. I am hoping we can be given specifics on how the uniform should look per the AF so were not coming up with ideas in the dark.

[rframe]

I seriously doubt the AF cares what our uniforms look like with the exception of reserving some control so that "if" we wear AF style uniforms they are done right and there remains some distinction from actual military.  The problem with uniforms in an organization like CAP is I doubt you'll ever make most people happy because people come in with very different backgrounds and purposes.  A lot of people like me are happy to be civilian volunteers just trying to help their community using their talents and ambitions, the Air Force connection is neat but not a main concern or motivation.  Many other people come in with military backgrounds and admit that one of their main reasons for joining is the chance to continue wearing a military uniform.  How can you reconcile those two expectations?  Now if these (and other) types of personalities could appreciate the motivation of the other people (hint: DIVERSITY), then I think people could approach the uniform issue with respect, but as it is there seems to be a lot of selfishness or "this is how I want it and that's the right way!".  I would say you almost cannot resolve this until you change the cultural attitude, which I think is a large part of the reason for so many variations in uniform and variations in the extent people go to comply (or ignore) uniform policy.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I seriously doubt the AF cares what our uniforms look like with the exception of reserving some control so that "if" we wear AF style uniforms they are done right and there remains some distinction from actual military.

This is true.  However, what that distinction has become is very vague and unenforceable.  The AFI on the matter says that confusion must be avoided "at low light and at a distance."  Well...they never say what "low light" means or how far "distance" means.  Years ago we had hard rank and blue epaulettes that said "CAP" on them, as well as the same blue nameplates cadets have today, and until the actions of a few, that did just fine for "distinction."  Now to even suggest getting those back is regarded as sacrilege.

The problem with uniforms in an organization like CAP is I doubt you'll ever make most people happy because people come in with very different backgrounds and purposes. 

Quite true.  "Purposes" range from the honourable and altruistic (community service, support to the Air Force) to much less so (just so they can fly on the AF's dime, or try to act like they're really an Air Force officer, when we are not).

A lot of people like me are happy to be civilian volunteers just trying to help their community using their talents and ambitions, the Air Force connection is neat but not a main concern or motivation. 

I find in my experience of almost 20-odd-years in CAP that the ones for whom the AF connection is "neat," as you said, are mostly in the ES side of things.  Some take it to an extreme and try to "re-make" CAP as "all ES, all the time."  Those are usually the ones who want us out of the AF uniforms entirely, and tend to congregate in senior squadrons (painting with a very broad brush, I know).

Many other people come in with military backgrounds and admit that one of their main reasons for joining is the chance to continue wearing a military uniform.

I am one of those; in my view, CAP is a way to continue being part of Team Air Force (such as we are these days) that I lost when I had to take a medical discharge from the ANG.

Also, I find that those who favour the Air Force uniform/military-type uniforms in general are mostly in CP and AE.  I do, and have done, ES, but as I get older and my health poorer I focus much more on AE because I like military aviation history and CP because I want to try to provide kids with something I didn't have much of as a kid - a safe place.

There are those who take CP to an extreme to the point of thinking that should be all we do, who say "cadets ARE our lifeblood."  Unfortunately, I've found some Air Force people who look at CAP that way.

I haven't yet found anyone who is so overzealous for AE that they want to junk the other two aspects.

How can you reconcile those two expectations? 

I don't know if they can be reconciled.

Now if these (and other) types of personalities could appreciate the motivation of the other people (hint: DIVERSITY), then I think people could approach the uniform issue with respect, but as it is there seems to be a lot of selfishness or "this is how I want it and that's the right way!". 

Another good point.  I cannot speak for anyone else, but as a strong supporter of our AF side, it's really neither here nor there to me if someone doesn't want to wear the AF uniform.  My squadron has people who wear either or both.  However, what does rankle me is those who say we must be out of the AF uniform completely, and that the polo shirt is all we need (which is contrary to regs).  I am sure that those who choose to wear the corporate uniforms feel that way about those who don't like those uniforms trying to tell them "if you're not 'fat and fuzzy' you need to be in the AF uniform."

I would say you almost cannot resolve this until you change the cultural attitude, which I think is a large part of the reason for so many variations in uniform and variations in the extent people go to comply (or ignore) uniform policy.

Again, well stated.  However, I really didn't start seeing this divergence until the mid-1990's (around the time when John McCain tried to torpedo us), when the "corporatists" started taking more control at higher levels and inching us away from the Air Force.  I don't know if there can ever be a "reunification" or not.

[JoeTomasone]

This is true.  However, what that distinction has become is very vague and unenforceable.  The AFI on the matter says that confusion must be avoided "at low light and at a distance."  Well...they never say what "low light" means or how far "distance" means.

I would reasonably conclude this to mean at night, under normal street lighting (such as you might find on a base), and at 6 paces or so away ("salutable" distance) - so that you could determine if someone approaching you was CAP or AD in a reasonable enough time to render proper courtesies if warranted (or refuse them if it was a CAP officer demanding one?).
   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would reasonably conclude this to mean at night, under normal street lighting (such as you might find on a base), and at 6 paces or so away ("salutable" distance) - so that you could determine if someone approaching you was CAP or AD in a reasonable enough time to render proper courtesies if warranted (or refuse them if it was a CAP officer demanding one?).

Well-stated...better than the AFI, I believe.  Perhaps you could submit your statement for inclusion in the next AFI?

However, there are still so many variables involved.

1. Not everybody's eyesight, including night vision, is the same.
2. Probably the most important, very few people in the AF below field grade know who and what CAP is, especially junior enlisted.
3. The identifier of "CAP" on our rank slides would be quite visible under the conditions you describe, regardless of what colour the rank slides are (especially in streetlight).
4. If someone is going to be enough of a dolt to demand an unwarranted salute from a military member, they're going to do it regardless of what uniform they're wearing.

WRT #4., especially...we've been without the hard rank and blue slides for 20-odd years now, and we've had the grey slides since 1995.  Yet we still have occasional instances of this happening, to the extent that General Amy Coulter felt compelled to issue a directive on the matter during her tenure as national CC.