Civilian jacket in CAP uniform

[Daniel]

Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,

these outerwear items are impossible to find.

[Eclipse]

Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,

these outerwear items are impossible to find.

Seriously?

Google, as well as the local surplus store, is your friend.

http://tinyurl.com/bor6tsx

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=m65%20field%20jacket&_sop=15

[SARDOC]

The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.

Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization

[wuzafuzz]

The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.

Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization

Is that law, or is that folk law?  I can't find it in 39-1, but I haven't reviewed all the ICL's and catchup memos.

CAPR 39-1 states in pertinent part:
4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer
combinations as desired.

[a2capt]

With a Billion Dollars you could make what you need, and resell them to those who couldn't get them before. Buy larger ones, have them re-tailored.

Seriously? What's not available. You say you are not "large" but not "small", so.. that sounds like..pretty middle of the road.

[JayT]

Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,

these outerwear items are impossible to find.

Army Air Force Exchange Service. Ebay. Galls.

What are you looking for?

[Private Investigator]

Is a field jacket (M-65) in woodland camo made for an extra small 12 year old?

[Eclipse]

Is a field jacket (M-65) in woodland camo made for an extra small 12 year old?

No more yes or no then any other military uniform, but I >have< seen them in extra small.

[Abby.L]

I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, and I've noticed this: There are the extremists who think that any deviation from the reg, even in regards to safety, is pretty much sin; there are the "In the middle" one who seem to approve of cadets with normal jackets, but not senior members; and there are the common-sense people who think that if someone doesn't have a per-reg jacket, then wear it, no matter who it is.

I believe that I would be the latter of the three. I was certainly not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and I search for said silver spoon every where I go. So, per some people's thinking, I shouldn't be in CAP because I don't have the money for it. But why? Why alienate a member who's willing to give it his/her all, just for reg's sake? I mean, of course, if anyone were to wear a bright pink Hello Kitty jacket(The only positive attribute being its brightness. Perfect for SAR!), then that's kinda ridiculous. But if someone simply wears a conservative jacket when they're outside of his squadron in the cold, then I would certainly hope that no one would dare take away his jacket. I myself am unable to procure an M-65, so just wear a plain leather jacket in its place if the need arises. No one has said a thing about it, as it should be. Of course, I understand that getting a per-reg M-65 is important, and I get it. But unless someone feels like paying for it, then feel free to watch me walk away in my leather. I wouldn't use the M-65 enough(Per calender year) to validate the cost.

[Garibaldi]

I guess I'm old school in my thinking. Either you're in uniform or you don't wear it. However, I've come to realize that this attitude no longer has a place. WIWAC, we all had uniforms, and all the accessories that went with it. We all had field jackets, parkas, or whatever, mainly because our unit CC was a scrounger par ex. No one showed up at an activity out of uniform, because we all had what we needed.

That was fine in a unit of maybe 20-25 cadets and 8 or 9 seniors.

My current unit has 56 seniors and 74 cadets on the roster. I'm not going to get into the whole "what uniform do you wear" because it's a tired topic. The cadets all have a basic set of BDUs and blues. As far as coats, some have field jackets, some have hunter camoflage, some have civilian jackets, but aside from a few occasions, the weather here is such that we really don't need coats most of the time. Outdoor activities are few and far between during the winter months, except for our ground team school, and most of those cadets and seniors who are serious about ES and ground ops are serious about uniformity.

Our area is weird. Aside from Walmart its various support mechanisms, jobs are pretty blue collar. A few of our cadets are on some sort of scholarship and most are home schooled. Point is, varied economic circumstances dictate what the cadets' parents can afford. In a few cases, the cadets who have jobs after school spend a lot on their uniforms and items. A few parents go all out and buy their kids whatever they need. And in a lot of cases, we end up footing the bill for some activities and uniform items, not out of any sense of charity as such but because we want them to fit in.

Civilian coats with CAP uniforms? What are they going to do, fine us? Give us an Article 15? Send us to Afghanistan? If a cadet is cold, yes, it's kind of his or her fault for not coming prepared with anything other than their hot pink Hello Kitty hoodie, but am I going to stand by quoting regs while we haul him or her off for frostbite? Heck no. I will give them the coat off my back if need be. I'm not saying regs be [darn]ed when it comes to safety. I am saying that if that's all they got, then that's all they got, and I will take the heat if someone complains.

[Blues Brother]

I am not a fashion aficionado by any means, and I am not into howdy kitty jackets or whatever they are called.  I am assuming thats some high price fashion brand that the Kardashians wear.   but if folks cant afford winter coats, whatever works in cold weather, IMO. You cant effectively operate a cold weather SAR if your cold and chattering your teeth trying to stay warm.  I joined CAP to use my skills to help folks out with SAR.  I didnt join to be a Frank Burns running around trying to uniform police people like Hawkeye Pierce. I am just a small cog in a wheel, but if someone is willing to go out in freezing temps to search for a lost hunter/camper/hiker I am not about to go criticizing their winter wardrobe, I would just be glad they showed up to help find someone who may go into hypothermia and die if it werent for folks like us searching for them.

[RiverAux]

I myself am unable to procure an M-65, so just wear a plain leather jacket in its place if the need arises. No one has said a thing about it, as it should be.

At a minimum someone should have said something about you being out of uniform.  It is not "as it should be" that it has gone un-noted. 

Just because no one has dressed you down for it doesn't mean that it is ok to do.  Unfortunately, most uniform "violations" go uncorrected in CAP because everyone is too afraid to tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, even those that are supposedly leaders. 

This is not a safety issue.  It is an issue of folks not obtaining the proper uniform because they think they can get away with it, and it appears that they often do. 

[Eclipse]

I would just be glad they showed up to help find someone who may go into hypothermia and die if it werent for folks like us searching for them.

The "you're lucky I showed up at all" attitude is routinely cited as one of CAP's challenges.

[SARDOC]

The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.

Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization

Is that law, or is that folk law?  I can't find it in 39-1, but I haven't reviewed all the ICL's and catchup memos.

CAPR 39-1 states in pertinent part:
4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer
combinations as desired.

Got me...I guess that was folk law.  I know that the Aviator Uniform is only authorized for 18 and above for those outside standards.  I was under the impression that cadets under 18 were required to wear air force style uniforms.

[Eclipse]

I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, and I've noticed this: There are the extremists who think that any deviation from the reg, even in regards to safety, is pretty much sin; there are the "In the middle" one who seem to approve of cadets with normal jackets, but not senior members; and there are the common-sense people who think that if someone doesn't have a per-reg jacket, then wear it, no matter who it is.

Which part of "uniform" is not clear?

Do you think that the other agencies we work with, military, LEA, FD, even the local EMA are allowed to just "come as you are"?
Part of CAP is accepting the responsibility for adhering to the higher standard, that's the price of the opportunities CAP affords.

We have a constant background complaint of being taken seriously, yet these simple, baseline concepts are viewed as somehow optional.

Also regularly missed is no matter where you set the bar, there will always be a group who miss the mark, some by accident or circumstance,
and some taking advantage of the situation.  In this case, if you set the bar as "the uniform regulations are sacrosanct, deviation is not allowed,
and in the rare case they are necessary because of emergency circumstances, they are a clear exception, not the norm..." then no one is
confused and everyone knows that at some point they have to comply.  Otherwise you will have some who feel there's "no reason to bother..."

And then we are where we are, literally.

Try the "come as you are approach" to a high school sports team.  If you want to play, you get the uniform.  No uniform, no play, no exceptions.
People are free to make choices, and in this day and age, the average kid is carrying a smart phone, has 2-3 game consoles at home, and
a cable bill that looks like a mortgage.  In those cases, I have little sympathy for the inability to somehow find a $25 jacket.

[Garibaldi]

I am not a fashion aficionado by any means, and I am not into howdy kitty jackets or whatever they are called. 

Hello Kitty. Japanese anime (cartoon) that's been around for a great number of years and is quite popular among teenage girls. And some guys. But that's not important right now. 

[Garibaldi]

Try the "come as you are approach" to a high school sports team.  If you want to play, you get the uniform.  No uniform, no play, no exceptions.
People are free to make choices, and in this day and age, the average kid is carrying a smart phone, has 2-3 game consoles at home, and
a cable bill that looks like a mortgage.  In those cases, I have little sympathy for the inability to somehow find a $25 jacket.

Yeah...never could figure out people who complain they can't afford to feed their kids or are behind on their rent/mortgage and are still able to afford multiple tattoos, the newest smartphone, HDTV/cable, an XBOX, high speed internet and $150 shoes. Priorities. Gotta love them.

[Stonewall]

As the originator of this thread, I'll chime in on my thoughts and experiences...

Thoughts:   Ideally I would absolutely LOVE to have everyone wearing appropriate uniforms IAW 39-1, but I'm a realist and understand that M-65s or Gore-tex jackets are not always free or available, nor can a lot of people afford them.  I have always asked members to dress warmly underneath their uniforms if possible, so as to not require an outer garment.

We had 30 cadets at the meeting the other night and there is no way every cadet could come up with an M-65, it's just not feasible or realistic.  So, in that case, I would reluctantly allow cadets to violate 39-1 and stay warm.  Obviously, if you're one of those fortunate squadrons with a large enough indoor area to house everyone, then there is absolutely no need to be outside in the first place.  We do not fall into that category.

Experiences:   As a cadet I did not have an OD fatigue jacket.  In fact, my first set of fatigues (yes, the pickle suit) came in short sleeve.  That's right, people, I had short-sleeve fatigues (surpluss from the AF).  What jacket did I use?  I used my dad's Nomex flight jacket, with velcro and all. But I did put CAP patches on the jacket to make it more legit, but it was absolutely against regs.  It was either that, or not participate.  That's all there was to it.  I was scrawny and 14, and if I had purchased an M-65 at the time, if they even made them in my size, I would have out-grown it by the following "cold" season and it would have been wasted. 

As a senior member in DCWG, where it snows and gets into the teens during the winter, we simply allowed cadets to wear what kept them warm.  Keep in mind, people were wearing Gore-Tex jackets long before they were ever authorized in CAP.  LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG before...  So even though we had at least half of our squadron wearing the GI issued ECWCS parka, they too were not authorized for wear in CAP.  So you still had the silly argument of "do you wear a civilian Hello Kitty jacket, ECWCS parka, or force everyone to buy the M-65?" 

I will say this, that there is a difference between a nightly meeting and allowing someone to wear their civilian jacket for an hour or two and showing up to a weekend activity.  I am definitely okay with allowing civilian outer garments at a meeting, but if we were headed to a military base on the weekend, I'd figure out another way to keep everyone in uniform.

My wife is a small fry and has an extra woodland Gore-Tex, so I'd let a cadet borrow that, or even her light weight blues jacket (for a female, of course).

[Blues Brother]

Do you think that the other agencies we work with, military, LEA, FD, even the local EMA are allowed to just "come as you are"?

I have seen it many times.  depending on the agency, the area, and the climate,  I have seen that in emergency response drills or real SAR missions.   local SAR teams often have no uniforms at all, and always wear civies.  the Fire dept often wear wear civie outergarments.  they dont wear fire turn outs on a SAR mission. they want to stay warm so they wear their winter civies.  usually hunting hear. I have even seen police wear a civie jacket if out on a SAR call. often times in the woods they wear some type of bright orange clothing, and when its cold that usually means hunting jackets, etc....   they arent doing uniform inspections in the woods at 11pm while looking for a lost hunter.  they are trying to stay warm so they can be out there as long as it takes to find them.    No, I havent seen hello kitty jackets, but its very often to see hunting jackets, or just civie winter clothes, snow suits, ski suits, snow mobile suits, etc... worn by all the agencies out there.  fire, police, EMT, local SAR, etc...  Saw a sheriff wearing a polaris snowmobile jacket one time.  kept him warm and that was what was important at that time.  plus his bright blue & white polaris jacket was FAR easier to see in low light than the standard brown sheriff jacket.   IMO, that IS a safety issue. 

[Eclipse]

CAP is supposed to be more than a local SAR team, volunteer fire department, or a group of vigilante searchers in their NFL jackets.

You may well be in a rural area, but I can assure you that in municipalities with structured fire and police services, you're not going to see them in anything but a prescribed uniform jacket (and we're not talking about plain clothes here).

Further, we are a paramilitary organization that echoes a parent service, which means we wear what is authorized, and nothing more.  That's part of the deal.

This has nothing to do with safety.  "Safety" is an excuse that people try to use when they can't comply with the rules, or want to wear something hardkewl that's not on the list.  FWIW, the ANSI II vest or jacket now required will be more visible then a white polar fleece, so its irrelevant.

"Field expediency" is what you do in a real-world with lives or property at stake when you did not properly prepare for the duty, or are confronted with unexpected circumstances.  They are not an excuse, nor even a valid reason for normal-duty operations or behavior.

We've already allowed that cadets get the exceptions because of their status and the seniors' "loco parentis". That doesn't make it right, or allow members, especially seniors, to dictate the uniform based on their personal closet or "safety".  Especially for seniors, because for them it is 100% choice.