Civilian jacket in CAP uniform

[okeecap]

With a volunteer organization and having members from all ends of the pay scale it is at times difficult to enforce uniform regs like these.  I do not think the cadet was in the wrong, it is very possible the cadet or their parents could not afford a warm dress blue coat or an A-2 Jacket, I can't.  On that note i am glad I live in FL and do not need one.  But if it is an issue with a commander on wearing the proper outerwear then for the cadets at least, it should be the responsibility of the squadron to supply said outerwear.

[RogueLeader]

Some of those squadrons have the same issue with money. If they can issue it, great. If not, it is still the members job to have the right gear.

[okeecap]

What about those who can not afford the proper outer wear, in a squadron with little funds?  I know some people are loaded with cash or retired and have little bills or live at home with mommy and daddy.  The simple solution I guess would be to make the grey and white & the BBDU the only available uniforms in CAP then we can wear what ever jacket we want.

[Eclipse]

The rules is the rules, no different then any other organization.

Seniors have a simple choice of an inexpensive uniform for most activities. If they >choose< a more complex option, or >choose< to be involved in things outside in the cold, then they need to dress both safely >and< properly.

M65s are inexpensive and perfectly suitable, especially with layers. Any duty in conditions where an M65 isn't enough is probably pushing the ORM numbers pretty hard anyway, especially if we're talking about cadets.

[Pylon]

If the cadet or senior member doesn't have authorized uniform outerwear appropriate to the uniform they are wearing and also the weather they knew in advance they were going to experience (nobody is surprised by winter showing up), then they shouldn't be participating in the first place.  The jacket thing should be a non-issue.  I don't show up to the Winter GTM training if I don't have appropriate gear & clothing, so why would we expect less of our cadets at other times?


I think the "Oh, well they're just cadets and they need to be coddled and so let them wear whatever they want" actually belittles the professionalism and responsibility I've seen and come to expect from most of our awesome CAP cadets.


I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here.  But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"


If a cadet shows up in BDUs with sneakers and no good reason other than "Well, I didn't have the money for the right boots" and "But it's cold outside so I need to wear something on my feet; it's a SAFETY issue!"  Would we accept that as an answer?


For our unit, we did a little fundraising and I went on eBay and over the course of a few months bought every M-65 Field Jacket in serviceable condition that I could get for under $25.  We ended up with about 20-25 field jackets, owned by the squadron that 6 years later are still being used by cadets.   The squadron sewed CAP tapes & the required flag patch on all of them, and sewed a loop velcro strip where the name goes.  Cadets get an extra nametape with their new uniform package and a strip of adhesive hook velcro from a big roll.  Slap your name and some chevrons on, and then peel it all off when it's time to hand it off to the next cadet.   Has worked for us without problems for years.

[Blues Brother]

I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here.  But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"

  Thats pretty cold.  many people simply cant afford it.   There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days.  l know not everyone is, but many are.  I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts.  Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us.  perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform.  some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table.    so as an organization we just say,  "oh well, too bad, you cant participate"  if they cant afford a winter jacket?      wow.....     I just cant see the practicality in it.  we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission.  we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it.  is this THAT serious of an issue?   really?   I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion.    I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on.   sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.

[abdsp51]

As much as I am for being a stickler for regs, common sense dictates in some aspects.  Personally for someone to cry "It's a safety issue is a cop out..."

[okeecap]

I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here.  But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"

  Thats pretty cold.  many people simply cant afford it.   There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days.  l know not everyone is, but many are.  I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts.  Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us.  perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform.  some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table.    so as an organization we just say,  "oh well, too bad, you cant participate"  if they cant afford a winter jacket?      wow.....     I just cant see the practicality in it.  we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission.  we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it.  is this THAT serious of an issue?   really?   I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion.    I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on.   sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.

Absolutely agree, my squadron goes and does fund raisers in order to supply uniforms.  In the community we are located in it is very rural and the primary means of employment if available is dairy or citrus, which does not pay much.  I believe in our organization and the EO policies, and that any one can participate.  I do not believe that a cadet should have to sit out any activities simply because he/she cannot afford a CAP jacket, that thought is crazy.  Yes uniform regs are important, but too when they were written many moons ago the nation was in a better spot monetarily.  Face it its a recession even in cap people can not afford it, and if you in a recession proof biz you are just lucky and do not understand.  This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.     

[abdsp51]

I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here.  But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"

  Thats pretty cold.  many people simply cant afford it.   There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days.  l know not everyone is, but many are.  I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts.  Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us.  perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform.  some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table.    so as an organization we just say,  "oh well, too bad, you cant participate"  if they cant afford a winter jacket?      wow.....     I just cant see the practicality in it.  we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission.  we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it.  is this THAT serious of an issue?   really?   I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion.    I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on.   sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.

Absolutely agree, my squadron goes and does fund raisers in order to supply uniforms.  In the community we are located in it is very rural and the primary means of employment if available is dairy or citrus, which does not pay much.  I believe in our organization and the EO policies, and that any one can participate.  I do not believe that a cadet should have to sit out any activities simply because he/she cannot afford a CAP jacket, that thought is crazy.  Yes uniform regs are important, but too when they were written many moons ago the nation was in a better spot monetarily.  Face it its a recession even in cap people can not afford it, and if you in a recession proof biz you are just lucky and do not understand.  This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives., not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.   

FTFY.  There is nothing fabulous about wearing the uniform and presenting a professional appearance doing so. 

[Blues Brother]

This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.   

Very well stated.   Your comment made me think of the old Andy Griffith show.  Barney Fife was in perfect uniform all the time and got all hung up on regulations and rules.   Andy Taylor wore a casual uniform and kept peace in the town and everyone was happy.   I think sometimes people lose sight of just how hard the economy has hit some families.   I too believe in the CAP and its mission, and I also understand the importance of regs, but I also think there has to be a level of common sense and practicality involved.   I honestly think its a tragedy to exclude a cadet from a mission that they want to participate in because they cannot afford a winter jacket that meets uniform regs.     

[abdsp51]

This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.   

Very well stated.   Your comment made me think of the old Andy Griffith show.  Barney Fife was in perfect uniform all the time and got all hung up on regulations and rules.   Andy Taylor wore a casual uniform and kept peace in the town and everyone was happy.   I think sometimes people lose sight of just how hard the economy has hit some families.   I too believe in the CAP and its mission, and I also understand the importance of regs, but I also think there has to be a level of common sense and practicality involved.   I honestly think its a tragedy to exclude a cadet from a mission that they want to participate in because they cannot afford a winter jacket that meets uniform regs.   

There was nothing casual about Andy's uniform he wore the uniform for his dept as did Barney and the fellow after him.  And it's easy to keep the peace in town and such when it's all scripted for you.  IMO in transit to and from meetings and activities depending on area if you need a coat wear it.  Every effort should be made for the proper uniform coat/jacket however if its not possible and the weather dictates then let them wear something suitable.  The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them.  And there is nothing saying that a cadet can't participate at the misson base if they are not allowed to go out in the field because of a uniform item. 

[Private Investigator]

After 71 years a civilian jacket in CAP uniform. I doubt if that is the first time and it will not be the last time that will happen. 

Happy Birthday   

[krnlpanick]

The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them. 

FWIW this sounds like the words of someone who probably isn't and never has been in a similar situation, especially when you are at that age. It is one thing for a 12-16 year old's parents to reach out for help on something like this but the reality is that in most cases the cadets likely aren't communicating to their parents that they need uniform pieces because they know and understand that they are in tough times. But anyone who has ever been a teenage boy or girl amongst their peers and adults that they look up to knows that reaching out for help in that situation is terrifying.

IMHO Those avenues are indeed out there though and it should be the responsibility of the peers and leaders that the cadets look up to that offer that help - we are a unit and we look out for each other.

[abdsp51]

The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them. 

FWIW this sounds like the words of someone who probably isn't and never has been in a similar situation, especially when you are at that age. It is one thing for a 12-16 year old's parents to reach out for help on something like this but the reality is that in most cases the cadets likely aren't communicating to their parents that they need uniform pieces because they know and understand that they are in tough times. But anyone who has ever been a teenage boy or girl amongst their peers and adults that they look up to knows that reaching out for help in that situation is terrifying.

IMHO Those avenues are indeed out there though and it should be the responsibility of the peers and leaders that the cadets look up to that offer that help - we are a unit and we look out for each other.

Man you don't know me from Adam, I have been there before on a few occasions so I know what I am talking about.  How many of your peers and leaders know who to even talk to about those resources.  The resources are there and folks need to look for them and not expect for it to be handed out and given.  People whether it be cadets (of a certain maturity level) and SM need to ask about the resources and for help and not just expect it. 

[krnlpanick]

I didn't mean to insult abdsp51 - but I too have been there, and I think the point is that they don't just expect it to be given to them, but they are afraid to ask for help and afraid to bring it up to their parents - this is where a conversation from an adult leader is beneficial.

"Hey, I noticed that you don't have a complete uniform yet - are you having trouble getting something? Maybe I can help you out! Have you checked with Wing Supply to see if they have what you need in your size?" etc. etc. etc.

[Daniel]

Hi..

Long time, no post

Three surgeries last year, no cap, didnt post.

So I've recently been considering this one since the weather has gotten colder...

The problem is for me is

I can never find any coats, sweaters, or etc in my size for blues.

I'm not a small or large person by any means...

I hate the fact I cant find any allowed outerwear.
However because of the fact I can't
I have to wear my civilian jacket.

[Blues Brother]

I didn't mean to insult abdsp51 - but I too have been there, and I think the point is that they don't just expect it to be given to them, but they are afraid to ask for help and afraid to bring it up to their parents - this is where a conversation from an adult leader is beneficial.

"Hey, I noticed that you don't have a complete uniform yet - are you having trouble getting something? Maybe I can help you out! Have you checked with Wing Supply to see if they have what you need in your size?" etc. etc. etc.

maybe they dont expect it.  they probably dont even KNOW that that options exist for uniforms to be funded somehow.  I mean how would they?   I wouldnt know and I dont know.  and I wouldnt expect someone to give a jacket to me.  but I agree with the idea that the other members who are knowledgeable on such things should step up to help other members out and point them in the right direction.

[FW]

Senior Members may NOT wear civilian outerware with the Air Force blue uniform, flight suit or, BDU field uniform.  NO IF's, ANDS or BUTS! This is a very big sore spot for me as, I was the recipient of 2 CAP-USAF commanders tiraids after witnessing such a combination.  For "some reason", the Air Force does not take kindly to the bastardization of the uniform (plus, it did not look well as a NB/NEC member to have to deal with it).

Cadets, on the other hand, may wear a civilian coat or jacket. Is it written down? I have no idea. My personal view is to help get proper attire for cadets so it never becomes an "issue". 

[RiverAux]

Why is it wrong to expect cadets (or seniors for that matter) to buy the appropriate CAP uniforms for activities that they wish to participate in?

Its not like we're talking thousands of dollars. 

Yes, there are poor cadets (and seniors) for which this may be a major burden, but lets face it, if you're that poor you probably just can't afford to be in CAP. 

CAP just isn't for everybody.  If it were, then the AF would be buying everybody the uniform items it expect us to wear.  Since they don't they clearly expect that only those that can afford to properly uniform themselves to join.  Sure, they give cadets a head start on their uniforms, but they don't provide everything. 

Among other things, CAP is a hobby.  Hobbies cost money and as hobbies go, even accounting for buying uniforms, CAP is incredibly inexpensive. 

[wuzafuzz]

It's simple.  If you plan to be out in severe weather, plan to have the appropriate, authorized uniform items.  If unexpected weather hits then do what you must to ensure safety. That should be an exception and shouldn't be viewed as flexibility to be careless with your planning. 

If money is a concern purchase BBDU's instead of BDU's so any outergarment can be worn.  Squadrons that fund BDU's for cadets can just as easily fund BBDU's.  Alternately those units might commit to providing the entire, reasonably necessary uniform.  That's not "cold," that's following the rules we all agreed to follow when we joined and at every renewal.

To be clear, I'm not worried about a youngster dashing 100 ft from dad's car to the door of the meeting place.  I think we all get that.