No Cadet Uniform To Be Funded By CAP For First Year Cadets?

[JayT]

The usual reason for switching to BDUs/ABUs is to show that the AF personnel are warriors

I've always been curious about this. How does flight suit or ABU make someone look like 'a warrior?' Isn't that more of a matter of atttitude then anything else? Are the bulk of Air Force guys 'Warriors?' Heck, is the bulk of the US military 'warriors?'

I saw a picture of the ground breaking at the new Walter Reed Medical Center, and everyone except the Army general was in dress uniform. How is that professional?

[ol'fido]

Being a warrior is not an occupation, it's a mindset. If you are in the military, a cop, a firefighter, in EMS, and have put yourself between the good people and the things and the people that go bump in the night, you are a warrior.

[Major Carrales]

I hate to tell y'all this...because it tends to "burst" a lot  of people "uniform preference" bubble... but which "class" of military clothing you wear at any given time has no true barring on the idea of being a "warrior."  Simply but, if one took the oath, completed the training and preforms the duties (in dress uniform or in field/utilities) they are, by definition, a warrior.

If this idea of dressing in some sort of artificial "warrior" ethos has bearing, the there is no use for a dress uniform and field uniforms should be used for everything. (scoff...blasphemy...and, POP!)

[RADIOMAN015]

Folks, the AF recently made an announcement that they are going to control civilian positions with a 1 to 2 fill ratio, meaning if 2 leave only 1 is hired.

The point is that the AF budget for FY 13/FY14 may have some fairly drastic reductions in it, and I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some fairly drastic changes in CAP's funding.

We really need to be looking at how to bring down costs, and perhaps cadet first year uniform costs need to be looked at very carefully.  (and also the entire Junior ROTC program with the free shoes needs to REALLY be looked at).   Also what is the effective recovery rate for uniforms when a cadet fails to renew   Perhaps the IG needs to make this a special interest item.

Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.
RM

[jimmydeanno]

Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

[RADIOMAN015]

Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

May I suggest you look at this particular reference:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI65-601V1.pdf
Pay specific attention to page 134 Section 7E, "CAP & CAP LO Offices"  to the Budget Guidance & Procedures Instruction (Regulation).
It looks to me that this is pretty specific regarding budget matters that the USAF is responsible for this and there's NO direct line with congress.  It's still the AF staffers that do the work on the budget.  IF there's an across the board decrease ordered than that's what will happen.
RM   

[Eclipse]

We really need to be looking at how to bring down costs

Considering the millions of dollars of services we provide the USAF each year for free, I think we're doing pretty well on the ROI.  Drop one less
bomb or two and leave us alone.

[FW]

Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

May I suggest you look at this particular reference:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI65-601V1.pdf
Pay specific attention to page 134 Section 7E, "CAP & CAP LO Offices"  to the Budget Guidance & Procedures Instruction (Regulation).
It looks to me that this is pretty specific regarding budget matters that the USAF is responsible for this and there's NO direct line with congress.  It's still the AF staffers that do the work on the budget.  IF there's an across the board decrease ordered than that's what will happen.
RM

The above reference states the terms of allowance for the use of our annual grant. It has nothing to do with the amount of the grant or, the budget process. That is controlled by congress. The Air Force does have a say in the process though but, it is congress which has the final say.

Support for Liason offices and the State Directors are Air Force financed. This is not part of our annual grant in any way.

[BillB]

Most every Squadron in CAP fails to collect uniforms from cadets that drop out of the program in the first year. It may be just urban ledgend, but the uniforms are not the cadets property until the 2nd year.  How many cadets from your Squadron dropped out of the program in th first year and didn't return the uniform to Squadron Supply?

[lordmonar]

You know...the recovery rate has nothing to do with the cost of the FCU.

Even if we recovered 100% of the issued uniforms....each new cadet is still entitled to a NEW uniform.

If we are looking to make a savings......kill the FCU.

Or maybe instead of a new uniform for each new cadet......we buy them a service coat when the make WB and a new officer's coat at Mitchell.

If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some comittment out of them.

[FARRIER]

If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some commitment out of them.

This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread but to back Maj. Harris's point. $150 was quoted for one set of blues. A 12 year old kid can raise that by mowing lawns or offering to do yard work. Unless the kid has a physical handicap that precludes him from doing so, there is no excuse. Issue the BDU's/ABU's to the cadets and tell them they will have to pony up for the blues. Why is it High Schools require fees to join teams, those fees include the equipment? Again, this is not a thread hijack, but if we are looking at why assets are not being returned or used properly, we have to be honest about it.

Respectfully,

A former Mitchell Cadet

[Major Carrales]

If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some commitment out of them.

This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread but to back Maj. Harris's point. $150 was quoted for one set of blues. A 12 year old kid can raise that by mowing lawns or offering to do yard work. Unless the kid has a physical handicap that precludes him from doing so, there is no excuse. Issue the BDU's/ABU's to the cadets and tell them they will have to pony up for the blues. Why is it High Schools require fees to join teams, those fees include the equipment? Again, this is not a thread hijack, but if we are looking at why assets are not being returned or used properly, we have to be honest about it.

Respectfully,

A former Mitchell Cadet

The actual cost of what the Cadets get, which is on the FCU report is much less than $150 dollars.  They no longer get shoes or boots just a shirt, a belt, a cap and trousers.  No insignia, no service coat, no field uniforms.

On another note, at a function we did with JROTC and others, one of my (as in the unit to which I belonged) unit's officers noted how their uniforms looked somehow better.  It was no surprise,  many of our had stuff found in thrift shops and hand me downs.  The BDUs are usually some set found at the Goodwill or the removal of Army name tapes from some uncle's or father's uniform.

Fact is, JROTC and other organization get much more than we do for cadet uniforms.

[BillB]

AFJROTC gets shoes socks and a service coat which costs $85. The service coat costs more than the FCU that CAP cadets get. AFJROTC also gets issued the blue windbreaker.
If Squadrons would check with their local AFJROTC schools, they could get surplus at the end of the school year many sets of blues and shoes surplus. Mainly the shoes have been worn thirty times or less. Often the surplus uniforms don't get claimed by CAP and end up at DRMO.
Uniforms could be picked up by Squadrons, with an inventory sent to Group or Wing and a distribution made according to need since many Squadrons are out of a AFJROTC school area. The only problem with the surplus AFJROTC uniforms is there is a school shoulder patch normally sewn on shirts.

[Spaceman3750]

AFJROTC gets shoes socks and a service coat which costs $85. The service coat costs more than the FCU that CAP cadets get. AFJROTC also gets issued the blue windbreaker.
If Squadrons would check with their local AFJROTC schools, they could get surplus at the end of the school year many sets of blues and shoes surplus. Mainly the shoes have been worn thirty times or less. Often the surplus uniforms don't get claimed by CAP and end up at DRMO.

Can they legally give us uniforms directly? I thought everything had to go to DRMO first before going anywhere else?

[BillB]

Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations. If CAP doesn't claim them, they do go to DRMO. The same policy applies to AFROTC at colleges and universities.

[Spaceman3750]

Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations.

Good deal .

[PHall]

Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations. If CAP doesn't claim them, they do go to DRMO. The same policy applies to AFROTC at colleges and universities.

Would have been nice if National had sent a copy of that letter to all CAP units too.

[BillB]

PHall
I believe it was sent to all Squadrons. It's dated in the 1990's, but has not been revoked or superceded and is still in effect. The original letter was sent to all AFROTC and AFJROTC units.

Correction: I just looked for the letter and it's dated 26 June 2003and it's listed as AFJROTC Policy Letter #04

[lordmonar]

finding a source of surplus uniform does not reduce the cost of the FCU.

At most it will only be off set by the number of cadets who don't fill out the request because they got a squadron issued uniform.
At my squadron that would be zero.  We make all our new cadets fill out the request as part of their initial training.....even though we issue them surplus uniforms.

[RADIOMAN015]

finding a source of surplus uniform does not reduce the cost of the FCU.

At most it will only be off set by the number of cadets who don't fill out the request because they got a squadron issued uniform.
At my squadron that would be zero.  We make all our new cadets fill out the request as part of their initial training.....even though we issue them surplus uniforms.

Hmm, if the AF sends a brand new uniform with a specific cadet's name on it, it would seem to me that the specific cadet SHOULD get that uniform.   Otherwise, would the AF program manager consider this as potential borderline fraud At the very least is this our core values "integrity" issue    BTW I'm not trying to make you/your unit as the culprits in this because I do think that it is done pretty much throughout Civil Air Patrol, IF the unit has the appropriate size uniform.

I wonder how the AF Junior ROTC program gets their uniforms issued for their program in comparison to CAP

RM