My question is as per the title. Is it required to wear a CAP uniform when being transported in a CAP van? My squadron's currently up in arms with me because I showed up in civvies after not being told the uniform. I had asked my chain of command prior several times, to no avail. They're using the excuse that I should've known, and yes, however I sort of had a 50/50 chance of being in the right uniform because there's no standard for that at my unit. Cite sources please in case I have to talk to the commander about it... Thanks!
Yes ... no ... maybe ...
https://civilairpatrol.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/33000211775-requirement-to-wear-a-cap-uniform-while-riding-in-a-cap-vehicle (https://civilairpatrol.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/33000211775-requirement-to-wear-a-cap-uniform-while-riding-in-a-cap-vehicle)
But, as stated, your Wing can set its own requirements.
(BTW, Google is your friend. I simply Googled your thread subject and this popped right up.)
Quote from: hamburgee on May 18, 2018, 11:49:04 PM
My question is as per the title. Is it required to wear a CAP uniform when being transported in a CAP van? My squadron's currently up in arms with me because I showed up in civvies after not being told the uniform. I had asked my chain of command prior several times, to no avail. They're using the excuse that I should've known, and yes, however I sort of had a 50/50 chance of being in the right uniform because there's no standard for that at my unit. Cite sources please in case I have to talk to the commander about it... Thanks!
It is on your chain of command to show the regulation that supports their belief. If this is something that you should have known then it certainly must be in a reg somewhere and they should point you to it.
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP
ground vehicle. CAPR 77-1 covers the operation and maintenance of CAP vehicles and the word "uniform" is not in the document. The reg is almost 6 years old so it hasn't been a requirement for at least that long. I can't speak of reg before that because that was before my time.
While it is a requirement to wear a uniform in a CAP aircraft (CAPR 70-1), there isn't any guidance from a national level on uniform wear in a CAP vehicle. Your region or wing may have a supplement that dictates uniform wear. Again, ask your chain of command to show you.
For what it's worth, this gem has been floating around for years.
I once delivered a CAP van to a regional conference in another state, wearing civilian clothes as to not muss my uniform during travel. Upon arrival, a very officious Major attempted to rip me a new one for not being in uniform. He was, however, unable to produce any regulation to support his position.
I suspect your squadron won't be able to either.
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
What reg is that in?
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
What reg is that in?
CAPR CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2.
Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or
Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned
aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B,
or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian
clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is
appropriate to wear civilian clothes.
39-1 is an "M" not an "R".
There are situations such as missions, airshows, and the like where wearing the uniform is appropriate. There are others where it is not or it is not practical. If I am transporting cadets to and from the flight line at an encampment, I am probably going to be in uniform. If I am transporting those same cadets to a local park to have an end of encampment cookout where the UOD is civvies, I'm not going to be wearing a uniform. If I am taking the van to the JiffyLube for an oil change, I am not going to wear a uniform. There is no reg specifically covering uniform wear while operating a corporate vehicle. Common sense and local policies will dictate.
Another myth is that you won't be covered by insurance if you're not in uniform. No regulation on that one either.
I had to reposition some equipment before and after an activity a few weeks ago. I used our F-350 the morning of the activity to get the gear (in uniform), and then the next day I took the gear back. In civvies.
It was weird, then I remembered back to many, many years ago taking a CAP van full of cadets on a cross-country road trip. None of us was in uniform for the 10+ hrs we spent in the van. Even the drivers.
So maybe not so weird.
Quote from: GZCP31 on May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
What reg is that in?
CAPR 39-1 1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or
Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned
aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B,
or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian
clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is
appropriate to wear civilian clothes.
Please read the last line of your quote from CAPM 39-1 as well.
I have ridden in a CAP vehicle a few times in civies, incuding off-duty clothes and PTs
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: GZCP31 on May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
What reg is that in?
CAPR 39-1 1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or
Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned
aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B,
or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian
clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is
appropriate to wear civilian clothes.
Please read the last line of your quote from CAPM 39-1 as well.
Yes, there seems to be many subject areas of CAP where things can differ Region to Region, Wing to Wing, and then Squadron by Squadron.
And no central depository of all those local regs/rules/guidelines. Makes it very hard to always know about these things. Especially when you get down to new Squadron Commanders that might would come in and want to change things verbally at meetings and hope the word gets out. LOL
Unless working with cadets or on a mission number, wearing a CAP uniform on a CAP vehicle is not normally required by regulation, but it may be required by supplement, your commander, activity director, or officer in charge. This is something better asked through your unit/activity chain of command.
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 11:01:36 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: GZCP31 on May 19, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
Quote from: etodd on May 19, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 19, 2018, 12:50:29 AM
Spoiler alert: there is no reg saying you have to wear a uniform in a CAP ground vehicle.
The exception being if you are working with Cadets. So the question is what are you doing in the van? Driving with Cadets as passengers? A passenger escorting Cadets? Or are you solo driver in the van or just with other Senior members?
What reg is that in?
CAPR 39-1 1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or
Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned
aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B,
or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian
clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is
appropriate to wear civilian clothes.
Please read the last line of your quote from CAPM 39-1 as well.
And no central depository of all those local regs/rules/guidelines. Makes it very hard to always know about these things. Especially when you get down to new Squadron Commanders that might would come in and want to change things verbally at meetings and hope the word gets out. LOL
Actually there is a central depository for all regulation supplements, https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/publications/approved-supplements-and-ois-by-region/ (https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/publications/approved-supplements-and-ois-by-region/) . All OIs and supplements require NHQ approval and are posted at this site. If they
are aren't there then they are not approved and are thus not valid.
The problem is that many units haven't read CAPR 1-2 so they do not know that this is a requirement until SUI/CI time comes around.
^^^^^
FTFY.