Idea: Junior Cadet Program

[DNall]

Of course you could go back to the original CAP Cadet program. And leave promotions up to the Squadron Commander without respect to how many achievements have been completed. The cadet would still earn the ribbon but NOT the promotion. Or the Commander could promote up to C/CMSgt even if the cadet has only completed 2-3 achievements. Promotions based on either duty assignment for the cadet or the really gung-ho cadets could earn promotions. All that changes when the cadet earns the Mitchell but Squadron Commanders could promote up to C/Maj again depending on duty asignment. (C/LtCol and C/Col reserved for Earhart or Spaatz)
Jack Sorensen told me once, sitting at the O-club at Maxwell, he made a mistake by tieing promotions to achiecvements. But he said it was to late to change it.

That's bad, and I'll tell you why. The large majority of Sq are just not capable of executing the program well. At best it's highly inconsistent from one Sq to the next. We have Wing level programs here exclusively to act as remedial training to standardize them to a level that can actually function in grade. If you make C/CC a C/Capt or Maj postion then the meaning of that grade on a quality level varries so dramaticaly that it loses all meaning. A discressionary grade system like that CAN work, but it has to be run by absolutely amazing highly experienced officers that run a tight leash on this system to keep people humble. It absolutely does NOT work in CAP where playing favorites & what have you done for me lately are more common than not, and seniors with the training or experience to properly develop cadets thru the varrious stages just aren't in great supply. You just have to have a symple objective system & have to enforce the subjective veto power thru promotion boards.

If anything, one of the deals our CAC is trying to do here locally is set up promotion standards & a Gp level review board for Earheart & higher.

[arajca]

If anything, one of the deals our CAC is trying to do here locally is set up promotion standards & a Gp level review board for Earheart & higher.

Sounds like a waste of time. Group has no say in whether a cadet is ready for the Earhart or higher award. It's the unit commander's responsibility and discretion.

[ZigZag911]

Of course you could go back to the original CAP Cadet program. And leave promotions up to the Squadron Commander without respect to how many achievements have been completed. The cadet would still earn the ribbon but NOT the promotion. Or the Commander could promote up to C/CMSgt even if the cadet has only completed 2-3 achievements. Promotions based on either duty assignment for the cadet or the really gung-ho cadets could earn promotions. All that changes when the cadet earns the Mitchell but Squadron Commanders could promote up to C/Maj again depending on duty asignment. (C/LtCol and C/Col reserved for Earhart or Spaatz)
Jack Sorensen told me once, sitting at the O-club at Maxwell, he made a mistake by tieing promotions to achiecvements. But he said it was to late to change it.

I came in as a cadet in 1970, several years after the 'old' system was replaced by the first version of the current one (we got to the 2nd approach before I turned senior!)

My understanding is that there were problems with squadron CC as determiner of rank as well as promoting authority....in many instances, evidently, there was an inordinate degree of nepotism and favoritism.....giving the upper echelon ranks to their own kids & their staffs' kids (I am deliberately NOT using the term 'cadet' here because of the reasons underlying these promotions -- family connections).

There are squadrons today where the cadet offspring of the unit CC or a senior officer has indeed EARNED the position of cadet commander.

And then there are those units where Mommy or Daddy invests their dear child with supreme power over his/her peers!

Let's at least allow the cadets who, by accident of geography, fall under the command of these "officers" (I refer to the seniors here; I'm not blaming adolescents for being adolescent -- just blaming adults for being adolescents!) receive their grade as well as their awards based on a system that has some semblance of objectivity.

Isn't it bad enough that so many corporate officers are chosen by the "it's not what you know, but who you know" method?

[ZigZag911]

If anything, one of the deals our CAC is trying to do here locally is set up promotion standards & a Gp level review board for Earheart & higher.

Sounds like a waste of time. Group has no say in whether a cadet is ready for the Earhart or higher award. It's the unit commander's responsibility and discretion.

Why do so few of us read 20-1?

Group commanders COMMAND their units and personnel...not just their Group HQ staff! Think of them as 'force multipliers' for the wing CC, making his/her span of control manageable.

Squadron commanders are SUBORDINATE commanders (just as group CC is to wing CC, and wing CC is to region CC).

If the Group says to do something, and is not over-ruled by higher authority, guess what? That's the way it works!

Now, a sensible group CC is going to have discussions with his unit CCs and staff about a radical change like this, and get most of the folks on board with it.

But I know -- from my tenure as Group CC -- that there is always at least one squadron commander who thinks this is the Royal Navy, we're fighting Napoleon, and he is Jack Aubrey or Horatio Hornblower sailing a frigate on an independent command.

It isn't, we aren't, and he's not!!!

[MIKE]

ZigZag, go read CAPR 52-16.

[DNall]

If anything, one of the deals our CAC is trying to do here locally is set up promotion standards & a Gp level review board for Earheart & higher.

Sounds like a waste of time. Group has no say in whether a cadet is ready for the Earhart or higher award. It's the unit commander's responsibility and discretion.

Neither does a Sq, wg, or region promotion board. All they do is advise the commander on the suitability of the candidate.

I do think it's a waste of time though, at least the review board part of it. It might be reasonable to have the promotion authority at some point in the cadet process rise above Sq, but that's a bigger thing. No, I think this along with a handfulof other things is a crew of phase IV cadets that dominate that CAC trying to sieze greater control of everything cadet in the group. They haven't always been kept as in check as I'd think is necessary.

[Guardrail]

OR sixth grade & he's homeschool to boot. I think we got a 14yo Spaatz running around too. That's pretty stupid. Why would you stay in the program after that for four more years?

That's a good point.  There would be little incentive for a 14 yr old Spaatz cadet to stay in, because his/her experience wouldn't be that interesting.  They'd get bored pretty quick.

More than hard work, I think a seperate program becomes unamangeable from a practical execution stand point. We already turn to cadets leading the way on things cause there's not enough adult leadership or support. And we can't always support all our events cause we can't even get adults out to chaperon. Plus most Sqs get 10-12 cadets actively particpating. Split the numbers in half & multiply the work times two w/o increasing personnel that's what you're saying.

I agree.  My plan would not work well because it's hard enough for squadrons to manage the cadet program already.  Last thing they need is something like a split between older and younger cadets.

As an alternative, and this one gets supported by a lot of the cadets I've mentioned it to, what if the progression were age linked at two stripes per year. In other words, a 12yo can promote to A1C then has to wait till their birthday to promote again, whereas a cadet that joins at 13 can promote to SSgt during that year. Again pros & cons, but that factors in maturity in a big way. How would yall feel about something like that?

I like that.  This would get rid of the whole "I'm younger than you and in charge of you" attitude, along with all the psychological issues associated with having a 12/13/14 yr old in charge of someone 18/19/20 yrs old. 

No no no, I'm sorry, let me try that again...
Read this Close
12yo maxes out at A1C
13yo maxes out at SSgt
14yo maxes out at MSgt
15yo maxes out at CMSgt
16yo maxes out at 1Lt
17yo maxes out at Maj
18yo maxes out at Col

TIG is still 2mos & you can advance as many grades per year as possible, but cap out based on age. If you join at 18 w/ four years of ROTC so you can do the once a month thing, then you can make Captain or so just based the TIG limitations, the above doesn't restrict you at all. On the other hand if you join at 14 you can promote as normal only to MSgt, then you're frozen till your birthday.

Does that make more sense? You can still amp up the requirements & academic content as you move up in grade because you know there's a minimum age to hold that grade. It's still very possible for a younger cadet with more experience to command an older one that joined later, BUT it reduces the dramatic seperation that can occur now to teh detriment of the program. It also addresses maturity in promotions in a fair objective way rather than leaving it to be pencil whipped right on by.

This makes more sense.  Thanks, DNall.  I like your idea the best.  Seems like it would be the easiest to implement.  You should propose this to National... I think they may give it a look. 

Another thing I like about your proposed promotion/age idea is that it allows all cadets to progress at a reasonable rate and still meet the 2 achievements per year rule in the 52-16.   

What do you know, the latest issue of the Volunteer (available for download http://www.cap.gov/visitors//news/civil_air_patrol_volunteer/downloads/ has an article highlighting a kindergarten through 5th grade CAP program "pre-cadet school program" in Philadelphia. 

Oh dear God!!! 12 is already way too young. It should have never let middle schoolers in. That was desperation of a troubled program that wasn't (and isn't) being consistently executed by quality personnel (adults) trained to the task that among other things results in terrible recruiting & retention.

Oh yeah, I can see problems with this down the line.  Even if there are CAP personnel who are also faculty (I think the Principal is also a Captain), the 52-16 was never designed for a program like this.  National/PAWG need to rethink this. 

[shorning]

There would be little incentive for a 14 yr old Spaatz cadet to stay in, because his/her experience wouldn't be that interesting.  They'd get bored pretty quick.

Not necessarily.  There is a lot to the cadet program besides simply making rank.  There would still be tons that person could do!

[DNall]

There would be little incentive for a 14 yr old Spaatz cadet to stay in, because his/her experience wouldn't be that interesting.  They'd get bored pretty quick.

Not necessarily.  There is a lot to the cadet program besides simply making rank.  There would still be tons that person could do!

Yeah there is, and this girl is great, but at some point that stuff gets old too. Also, there's a natural cycle to that kind of thing. We want people coming into phase IV & working those top tier postions for a couple years at most while mentoring replacements & then making way. It's nothing against her, and it's a great accomplishment, but there's nowhere or at lest very few places left to go but down.

[SAR-EMT1]

Nonsense...get her to study for her PPL, observer/scanner, ES and comms.
By the time shes ready to become a Senior she'll be trained up and ready to assume command of the Squadron and / or Wing 

[DNall]

There''s no getting a spaatz cadet anything. They take what they want. She's not my cadet, but I do believe she's got glider knocked out & will take care of powered when she's old enough. She's already done every ES thing a cadet is allowed to. She's up against age limits on everything else. I'm sure she'll do her bit a while & be on her way.

[SAR-EMT1]

LOL SHE WILL BE THE YOUNGEST WING QUEEN IN HISTORY!

On a serious note though, who was the youngest Spatzen and the youngest Wing/Region/National Commander?

[ZigZag911]

ZigZag, go read CAPR 52-16.

What's your point?

The very first paragraph says that commanders are responsible for administering the program in accord with 52-16.

Commanders...all commanders, the higher echelon commanders having the oversight duty to make sure this is getting done.

2-4 (d) discusses Promotion Boards, and there is nothing in it that suggests, implies, or infers that a Group or Wing commander could not require such a board for higher milestone awards, provided the required evaluation form is completed at the squadron, and the method is applied equitably and consistently throughout the command.

By the way, I read this regulation in its first (and subsequent) editions, way back when it was 50-16.

[MIKE]

ZigZag, go read CAPR 52-16.

What's your point?

Review boards or other additional requirements imposed by higher headquarters are irrelevant because promotion authority is established by 52-16, unless you have an authorized supplement.

... Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted, or when approved by National Headquarters. ...

[DNall]

ZigZag, go read CAPR 52-16.

What's your point?

Review boards or other additional requirements imposed by higher headquarters are irrelevant because promotion authority is established by 52-16, unless you have an authorized supplement.

... Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted, or when approved by National Headquarters. ...

A Gp CC can require a cadet meet w/ a Gp level review board prior or after taking the test so they can be reviewed & that advice provided to the Sq CC who still makes that promotion decision. The Sq CC is still the prmotion authority & free to ignore that advice, but if they ignore the order to have the cadet reviewed then the Gp CC is free to pick a new Sq CC at his pleasure. Again, I didn't say it was a good idea, I just said they're trying to do it, and not for what I think are the best reasons.

[arajca]

If I were a unit commander and the group commander decided he was going to tell me which cadets I came promote starting at the Earhart, he'd better expect a bunch of CAPF 2A's to tranfer those cadets to group, since their progression will no longer be my responsibilty and I don't want to be in the middle of the fights that will happen when I feel a cadet is ready, but the group cc doesn't or the other way around. If he wants to control promotions, he can have whole thing.

Of course, he'd probably replace me as unit commander, but that's fine. With that level of micromanagement, I'd probably resign as commander anyway.

[DNall]

You understand the Gp CC isn't involved with this. It's an advisory board of phase IV cadets conducting the review & giving a report to the Sq CC to aid in his decision. The Gp CC never sees it or even knows it happened, neither does the Sq CC have to read it much less follow the advice. All they're asking for is the ability to interview the kids & provide their input to ensure standards are being met & deficiencies addressed. That's pretty reasonable really. I still think they're doing it for the wrong reasons & it isn't going to fly, but there is some logic behind it.

[flyguy06]

I'm just curious bt what is the percentage of active cadets ages 18-21?

Most of these folks are either in college, in the military or working and doing young adult things. I was a financial cadet during these years but I was in college and only got to be active in the summer.

[ZigZag911]

ZigZag, go read CAPR 52-16.

What's your point?

Review boards or other additional requirements imposed by higher headquarters are irrelevant because promotion authority is established by 52-16, unless you have an authorized supplement.

... Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted, or when approved by National Headquarters. ...

You are assuming the group in question has not received authorization through channels for such a supplement.

You are also assuming that there is no need for quality control on both cadet and senior training....my experience indicates otherwise.

[ZigZag911]

If I were a unit commander and the group commander decided he was going to tell me which cadets I came promote starting at the Earhart, he'd better expect a bunch of CAPF 2A's to tranfer those cadets to group, since their progression will no longer be my responsibilty and I don't want to be in the middle of the fights that will happen when I feel a cadet is ready, but the group cc doesn't or the other way around. If he wants to control promotions, he can have whole thing.

Of course, he'd probably replace me as unit commander, but that's fine. With that level of micromanagement, I'd probably resign as commander anyway.

Which might be exactly the result desired, if your attitude was in fact 'it's MY squadron and that's the last word'....which is what you seem to be saying ehre