Unit Patch vs Higher Command Patch in CAP

[Shuman 14]

CAP's uniform and insignia sources are already quite limited so why paint ourselves further into the corner adopting a less readily-available boot color?

Which is why I recommend the authorization of BOTH black and coyote boots. If both are authorized, the question is mote.

[PHall]

DAFI 10-2702 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol 17 June 2021

1.2.3.2. The CAP-USAF Commander performs the following:

1.2.3.2.4. Approves CAP grade structure, wear and grooming standards for USAFstyle uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring distinction from DAF uniforms and identification cards;


The black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

[Jester]

Still have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Where is that written down?

[NIN]

While everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;
2) Black boots can be worn across the full spectrum of CAP utility uniforms both AF-style and corporate (ABU, BBDU, both FDUs, and CWU).

I get it, we want to look like Big Momma Blue and not like the red-headed stepchildren.

However:
1) We have a requirement for distinctiveness (as Phil quoted). That can surely be accomplished other ways (full color patches, our dark navy tapes, etc);
2) Tan/coyote boots are still fairly expensive. I can score a decent pair of black boots (either secret sneakers or regular combat boots) locally for around $50-75. I haven't seen tan/coyote boots of similar quality for that price. Usually, they're $100 and up and online-only (yes, I have seen Bellevilles via Sportman's Guide for $39).

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

[Ned]

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

I know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

[NIN]

I know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

Shush, Ned. I was making a point!

<checks Walk-in Uniform Closet>

1 pr spitshined jump boots, black
1 pr old-school flight boots, black

There's an old pair of Corcorans around here someplace that are retired. I think they're in the basement.

[Toad1168]

While everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;

You actually pointed out a glaring problem with the uniform reg that needs to be changed.  This was all fine and good when the boots were traditional combat boots that looked lore like dress shoes.  Now, everyone wears tactical boots which reallllyyyy look bad with blues. 

This provision needs to be stricken IMHO.

[Shuman 14]

The black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

Did any CAP-USAF Commander ever say that, or is that just your interpretation?

[Shuman 14]

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

But if you authorize both coyote and black, those that wish to can/could.

I think when CAP does get around to the OCP uniform, we should ask the CAP-USAF commander to authorize both.

FDU/OCP - coyote or black
CFDU/BBDU - black only

Those that want (or already have) coyote are happy.

Those that have (or want) black are happy.

Happy CAP'ers stay in CAP.

[PHall]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

[Shuman 14]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Not the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A new CAP member has free boots from the military because they are a veteran... they don't have to buy new boots... if coyote boots are authorized. That's a happy CAP'er.

[Fubar]

Not the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A fair and important concern to be sure, I've noticed the adult members who are here because of the uniforms never care about the cost, they have the brand new uniform ready to go on the first day it's authorized. The rest of the adult members purchase uniform combinations that never change.

Cadets seem to fall into three categories:

• The phase out dates are long enough that many cadets leave the program long before their uniform isn't allowed
• Cadets jump on the new uniform on day 1
• New cadets that purchase the cheapest option

It's the last group I think we should worry about.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Fair point....but I have met people who **almost** gave it up!

A new member, who looked a lot like me, got lectured by a long serving member about all the Must Have items....started with mess uniform, Class A, Class B, BDU (as it then was) and went on for a long time.  All absolutely must have within 6 months.

Thankfully, just at the point that said new member was wondering if this (CAP) was a good idea, an equally long-serving member got alongside him, tore up the list, and got him properly oriented..  That was 11 years ago and I can safely say that I've never needed most of that list, and i passed on the same advice when I got the chance!

[Eclipse]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

[PHall]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

[Shuman 14]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

If it were they would have kicked my out when I was a PFC. :-D

[NIN]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.

[PHall]

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.

You mean you don't want that nasty yellow scarf with all of the little chicken feet on it?

[Shuman 14]

the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

The Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P

[NIN]

The Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P

Yeah.  That winter cap is unneeded at this point in my trajectory.  If I'm standing honor detail in in the midst of winter in New England,  I've made a series of bad life choices.

As for the scarf,  well, I have _some_ standards. That thing is just godawful. And also,  since it has the CAP-USAF emblem on it,  I'm not sure we're the intended audience for it anyway.