Switch in Focus of the Cadet Program

[mikeylikey]

I noticed today that NHQ is seeking two professional educators to fill the positions of Education Program Manager and Assistant EPM.  With all of the talk coming from NHQ and the school programs appearing across the country I think we are at the verge of seeing a transition from Squadron Cadet Programs to strictly School Cadet Programs in a few years.  Already the School program and its related cadet units out number those Composite squadrons in Philadelphia in both numbers and funding.  Is this a good thing?  I think it may be too early to tell.  I can say though, is that the cadets in school program are at more of an advantage than those in Cadet and Composite Squadrons.  It really isn't that fair!

[MIKE]

I can say though, is that the cadets in school program are at more of an advantage than those in Cadet and Composite Squadrons.  It really isn't that fair!

How so?  Please explain.

The story in the Volunteer has me concerned though.  I think pics of elementary school kids standing in formation and saluting might be sending the wrong message.

[Eclipse]

Not going to happen.

We can't even get INTO the schools here in ILWG, and that is the case in much of the country, because of mis-guided anti-war/military sentiment.

What kind of funding are they getting in PAWG that is "better" than what the units get?

Because we get squat in ILWG, and a multiplier of "0" is still zero.

[Pylon]

What kind of funding are they getting in PAWG that is "better" than what the units get?

We have a MSI School squadron in my Group; something I was around as Group Cadet Programs Officer when it was created.  The one school already has well over 100 cadets and growing steadily.

They have a lot more funding than your average squadron, much of it from grants for such educational programs.  But cadet applications also get their national dues waived if they qualify for the free or reduced fee school lunch program.  Right there is a savings for cadets coming from less than wealthy backgrounds!

We could probably get more school squadrons going, but it takes so much support and dedicated adult members that it's best to take these one at a time for now.


But I disagree with the sentiment that the entire focus of the cadet program will change in this direction.  The heart and soul of CAP is based in its squadrons, scattered about the country.  CAP won't get into schools in every area, nor do I see it necessarily as a better alternative.

Are CAP school programs a different, but still successful, way of running a CAP cadet program?  Sure.  Is it better?  I don't think either are better -- they're well suited for different purposes. 

These new staffers may be on board to help expand the cadet corps, but they're not going to eliminate the squadron CP, and convert all CAP squadrons into senior-only units.  Don't see that type of paradigm shift happening, especially just based on the fact that the school program is beginning to grow and a couple of people were brought on board to help with that.  Shakey premise for the argument.

[Eclipse]

What kind of funding are they getting in PAWG that is "better" than what the units get?

We have a MSI School squadron in my Group; something I was around as Group Cadet Programs Officer when it was created.  The one school already has well over 100 cadets and growing steadily.

They have a lot more funding than your average squadron, much of it from grants for such educational programs.  But cadet applications also get their national dues waived if they qualify for the free or reduced fee school lunch program.  Right there is a savings for cadets coming from less than wealthy backgrounds!

OK, roger, but that's not money redirected from the "main" CP budget, so I have no issue with that - just as grants for ES work or Comm equipment
wouldn't go into the CP.

Expansion of our program isn't a problem, IMHO, as long as it doesn't water down the main program.

The BSA has Cub scouts, we can live with Junior cadets.

Anything that keeps kids in school and builds some patriotism isn't bad.

[ZigZag911]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

[CAP428]

That won't happen.  In my wing I know of no school cadet programs, though there may be one or two somewhere.

Also, what about home-schoolers?  There are a lot of those in CAP and moving to a school cadet program, it would be much more difficult for home-schooled members to a)join a cadet program, and b) be involved in one without being in the school.

[Eclipse]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

If you don't catch them in grade school, you'll likely never get them.

12 is about right.

[mikeylikey]

Not going to happen.
What kind of funding are they getting in PAWG that is "better" than what the units get?

The school program in PA Wing encompasses both middle schools and high schools.  as well as a new charter school that is set to boast around 180-220 cadets.  Every cadet gets their dues waived each year, they receive brand new AF uniforms purchased by the individual schools, they each have brand new laptops for each classroom and are receiving O-flights in front of other cadets.  That is PAWG set the priority to first fly school cadets then all other cadets.  Each school program is an all day CAP oriented environment.  Specifically, they come to school in uniform, and spend their days with teachers that are CAP Senior Members and do CAP specific activities. 

I am not saying CAP being in school is a bad thing.  Heck the Philadelphia School District is behind the program 100%.  Crime is down over 12% in those schools that have the cadet program.  The only thing I wanted to get across is that these school cadets will get preferential treatment, more opportunity and less financial burden than the average cadet at an average squadron.

[flyguy06]

I agree with the original poster. I think because the "mainstream" Squadron is going so ES heavy that the CP is being pushed to the side. Therefore National is trying to move the CP into the school system thereby freeing up mainstream sqaudrons to participate more in ES and missions for AMerica.

Yes, I know that cadets participate in ES but on the whole, I believe ( I am not sure) that more Seniors are involed in actual missions thater cadets.

Now these school based cadet programs are mostly in inner city schools which Ithin is a good thing ( I am an inner city child) I wonder how Senior Members will feel about this though.

[DNall]

The story in the Volunteer has me concerned though.  I think pics of elementary school kids standing in formation and saluting might be sending the wrong message.

The msg it does send I'm not sure I want to work with, certainly don't want to defend.

School program operate on local funds, and tend to spend 20k-300k/yr. I don't know what kind of local sponsor your Sq has or what kind of budget you get by on per year, or how many of your staff are paid full-time employees devoted only to CAP, but probably not that much.

Middle schools, drop the age range out of high school, push down the average age... all of this has happened because we couldn't maintan program size with the programming we had. Some of that is from increased competetion from JROTC, some is our program sucks - kids come to us wanting to be in the military & get science camp in return. We need to do a better job with our own people & programs, that's the answer, not pushing out further & further till we don't now who we are & we're spread too thin to support any of it right (pretty well there when we started, don't make it worse).

So yeah overall I don't like these programs & think they are a sign of weakness. It won't take over the program entirely though. That's a little crazy. We just need to fix what we got & rebuild.

[Guardrail]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

If you don't catch them in grade school, you'll likely never get them.

What makes you say that, sir? 

I don't believe that a 14/15 year old is any less likely to join CAP than a 12 year old.  The CAP Cadet Program has some nice incentives... scholarships... car rental discounts... and plenty of membership benefits.   

I have to agree with ZigZag911 on this one.  9th grade would be a better time for cadets to enter CAP.  I joined when I was 12, and saw many immature 12 year old cadets among me.  A lot of maturity occurs between the ages of 12 and 14/15.   

[lordmonar]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

If you don't catch them in grade school, you'll likely never get them.

What makes you say that, sir? 

I don't believe that a 14/15 year old is any less likely to join CAP than a 12 year old.  The CAP Cadet Program has some nice incentives... scholarships... car rental discounts... and plenty of membership benefits.   

I have to agree with ZigZag911 on this one.  9th grade would be a better time for cadets to enter CAP.  I joined when I was 12, and saw many immature 12 year old cadets among me.  A lot of maturity occurs between the ages of 12 and 14/15.

Well...the Boy Scouts start at 10 1/2...so we lose a portion of our possible recruits right there.....by the time they are 15-16 they are involved in sports, work, cars and girls and with our entry level being 12 they come in older than their leaders and that is an issue with some...so we lose another bunch of recruits.

Once in high school we also have JROTC in a lot of places and again we loose a number of recruits there.

This issue was one of the reasons why the last 52-16 draft had the challange option....but it got too much heat from the field that they dropped it in the final version.

CAP is a place to learn maturity not some place where you have to be mature to begin with.

I am also an advocate of speeding up the promotion process for the lower ranks....but that is a different thread.

[Guardrail]

Once in high school we also have JROTC in a lot of places and again we loose a number of recruits there.

This issue was one of the reasons why the last 52-16 draft had the challange option....but it got too much heat from the field that they dropped it in the final version.

What was the Challenge Option, sir?  I've never heard of that before.

CAP is a place to learn maturity not some place where you have to be mature to begin with.

I agree, it's just that 14/15 yr olds are easier to work with.  But you make a good point about their lives being not as busy at 12 and 13, thus making it easier to recruit them. 

I am also an advocate of speeding up the promotion process for the lower ranks....but that is a different thread.

I like that idea.  What do you think about DNall's idea of having TIG correspond with age?  For example, C/Amn would max out at age 13, C/A1C; 14, C/SrA; 15 and so on.  (I'm not sure if that was exactly how DNall set it up, but it's along those lines.  He'll be able to explain it better than me.) 

[fyrfitrmedic]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

If you don't catch them in grade school, you'll likely never get them.

What makes you say that, sir? 

I don't believe that a 14/15 year old is any less likely to join CAP than a 12 year old.  The CAP Cadet Program has some nice incentives... scholarships... car rental discounts... and plenty of membership benefits.   

I have to agree with ZigZag911 on this one.  9th grade would be a better time for cadets to enter CAP.  I joined when I was 12, and saw many immature 12 year old cadets among me.  A lot of maturity occurs between the ages of 12 and 14/15.   

It depends on your local culture. In my own neck of the woods, CAP units tend to pull from the same population that the local fire and EMS volunteer units pull from. At best, we get the best of both worlds; at worst, CAP tends to lose out to the big red trucks.

[lordmonar]

Once in high school we also have JROTC in a lot of places and again we loose a number of recruits there.

This issue was one of the reasons why the last 52-16 draft had the challange option....but it got too much heat from the field that they dropped it in the final version.

What was the Challenge Option, sir?  I've never heard of that before.

The idea was that older new cadets would have the a one time option of taking the milestone award tests and jumping in promotions instead of doing each acheivement in turn.  I can't recall the exact ages...but it was something like 15 year old could take the WB and 16 year old could take the Mitchel (or something like that).

The idea was....a reason why older cadets did not join or quit early on was that they were being commanded by 13 and 14 year olds and they were working a levels below their age group.

CAP is a place to learn maturity not some place where you have to be mature to begin with.

I agree, it's just that 14/15 yr olds are easier to work with.  But you make a good point about their lives being not as busy at 12 and 13, thus making it easier to recruit them. 

It's not our job to work with just the easy cadets...but with all of them....we serve the community.

I am also an advocate of speeding up the promotion process for the lower ranks....but that is a different thread.

I like that idea.  What do you think about DNall's idea of having TIG correspond with age?  For example, C/Amn would max out at age 13, C/A1C; 14, C/SrA; 15 and so on.  (I'm not sure if that was exactly how DNall set it up, but it's along those lines.  He'll be able to explain it better than me.)

I don't like making it a age=rank sort of thing because people are different...some 12 year olds are very sharp and some 15 year olds are dumber than a box of hammers.

My idea would be to eliminate any TIG requirments up to Wright Brothers....but the TIG requirments to BM down to 1 month/achievement. The AE TIG would stay the same and them increase the TIG through Spaatz up to 3 months.

This would allow you to promote older cadets who have some experince in leadership quicker....helping to eliminate the reluctance of JROTC and 15 year olds.  It would also help satify the instant gratification that younger people have....for a 12 year old 2 months is a life time!

I accept that it would be watering down our NCO corps...but when you look at the numbers we loose about 50% of our cadets before they make WB.....and another 15% by Mitchel.

I think that if we promote them faster earlier....we get them hooked and keep them longer in the long run....a 16 year old earhart is more likely to stay with program and make Spaatz than an 16 year old MSgt.

Of course YMMV.

And just to caviate this...I would also implace better training for CP officers and better oversight of squadron CP to insure that the program was being run correctly and consitantly across the country...to help eliminate the pencil whippers and the guys who hold too high of a standard and are holding back their cadets.

[Guardrail]

The idea [Challenge Option] was that older new cadets would have the a one time option of taking the milestone award tests and jumping in promotions instead of doing each acheivement in turn.  I can't recall the exact ages...but it was something like 15 year old could take the WB and 16 year old could take the Mitchel (or something like that).

The idea was....a reason why older cadets did not join or quit early on was that they were being commanded by 13 and 14 year olds and they were working a levels below their age group.

I actually like the Challenge Option.  It would serve as a good experiment, I think. 

I am also an advocate of speeding up the promotion process for the lower ranks....but that is a different thread.

I like that idea.  What do you think about DNall's idea of having TIG correspond with age?  For example, C/Amn would max out at age 13, C/A1C; 14, C/SrA; 15 and so on.  (I'm not sure if that was exactly how DNall set it up, but it's along those lines.  He'll be able to explain it better than me.)

I don't like making it a age=rank sort of thing because people are different...some 12 year olds are very sharp and some 15 year olds are dumber than a box of hammers.

Good point, sir.  I didn't think of that. 

My idea would be to eliminate any TIG requirments up to Wright Brothers....but the TIG requirments to BM down to 1 month/achievement. The AE TIG would stay the same and them increase the TIG through Spaatz up to 3 months.

This would allow you to promote older cadets who have some experince in leadership quicker....helping to eliminate the reluctance of JROTC and 15 year olds.  It would also help satify the instant gratification that younger people have....for a 12 year old 2 months is a life time!

Great point, sir.  I now like your TIG idea the best.  I, too agree that TIG for all ranks up to C/SSgt should be done away with.  I would propose this to the wing CAC... I think they'll look at it seriously.  

I accept that it would be watering down our NCO corps...but when you look at the numbers we loose about 50% of our cadets before they make WB.....and another 15% by Mitchel.

I think that if we promote them faster earlier....we get them hooked and keep them longer in the long run....a 16 year old earhart is more likely to stay with program and make Spaatz than an 16 year old MSgt.

Of course YMMV.

I agree.  Perhaps it is the long TIG up to Wright Brothers that causes CAP to lose so many cadets.

And just to caviate this...I would also implace better training for CP officers and better oversight of squadron CP to insure that the program was being run correctly and consitantly across the country...to help eliminate the pencil whippers...

Great idea, but how?  I also believe in better training for CP officers and better oversight of squadron CP, but we need a plan/strategy.

I know of a squadron that is suffering from severely untrained CP officers with virtually no accountability.  From what I know, it's not the only one out there.

...and the guys who hold too high of a standard and are holding back their cadets.

Like the DCC at my local squadron who has held back a cadet 8 months from the Curry Achievement! 

[ZigZag911]

If this really catches on, we ought to consider raising "senior" cadet entry level to 9th grade....it would eliminate a LOT of problems in terms of maturity, interagency ES participation (volunteer fire depts and rescue squads often have high school age 'cadets'), 14 year old Spaatzes.

If you don't catch them in grade school, you'll likely never get them.

12 is about right.

I'm not disagreeing....I'm saying use the MSI as the CAp equivalent of the Naval Cadets junior branch, a 'feeder' program.

[RiverAux]

CAP Cadet Program has some nice incentives... scholarships... car rental discounts...

uhhh, how many cadets are joining to take advantage of the car rental program?

[Pylon]

Great point, sir.  I now like your TIG idea the best.  I, too agree that TIG for all ranks up to C/SSgt should be done away with.  I would propose this to the wing CAC... I think they'll look at it seriously.  

Uh, wouldn't it usually be members of CAP who propose this to the CAC?  Especially since they're supposed to represent the opinions of the cadets in the Wing?

[Guardrail]

Great point, sir.  I now like your TIG idea the best.  I, too agree that TIG for all ranks up to C/SSgt should be done away with.  I would propose this to the wing CAC... I think they'll look at it seriously.  

Uh, wouldn't it usually be members of CAP who propose this to the CAC?  Especially since they're supposed to represent the opinions of the cadets in the Wing?

Yes, sir.  What I meant to say was, "If I were Capt Harris, I'd propose it to the wing CAC."

[DNall]

Yes, sir.  What I meant to say was, "If I were Capt Harris, I'd propose it to the wing CAC."

Now Capt Harris not being a cadet & not being in charge of a CAC that I know of might find that hard to do. CAC is for cadets to propose their ideas, just like a 1Sgt taking care of the enlisted folk. If you can convince one of them of something & they take the idea up & talk everyone else into it, then fine, but otherwise adults should send theirs thru an adult route.

Anyway, I still like the age requirement to go up so you can control the advancement rate of younger cadets but older ones can run thru it a bit faster to get to their maturity level.

[ZigZag911]

Yes, sir.  What I meant to say was, "If I were Capt Harris, I'd propose it to the wing CAC."

Now Capt Harris not being a cadet & not being in charge of a CAC that I know of might find that hard to do. CAC is for cadets to propose their ideas, just like a 1Sgt taking care of the enlisted folk. If you can convince one of them of something & they take the idea up & talk everyone else into it, then fine, but otherwise adults should send theirs thru an adult route.

Anyway, I still like the age requirement to go up so you can control the advancement rate of younger cadets but older ones can run thru it a bit faster to get to their maturity level.

I know of no reg forbidding Capt Harris from sharing an idea with one or more CAC reps, as long as it is stated as such, no hint of 'command influence'!

[Guardrail]

Anyway, I still like the age requirement to go up so you can control the advancement rate of younger cadets but older ones can run thru it a bit faster to get to their maturity level.

Yes, but don't you think that eliminating TIG for all the ranks in phase I, making TIG for phase II 1 month/achievement, and keeping everything else the same would be easier to implement?

[DNall]

No it's simpler to have standardized time in grade & just limit advancement by age. That way everyone is earning the same thing. You don't get to jump ahead cause you joined late. That's not really fair. You should still have to work your way thru the program just liek everyopne else, and that includes serving time in those grades cycling thru developmental positions in the unit. If a new 160 is pissed off he's facing a 13yo girl SSgt, you need to give him a humility check & tell him to learn his stuff & earn his advancements just like she has.

I know of no reg forbidding Capt Harris from sharing an idea with one or more CAC reps, as long as it is stated as such, no hint of 'command influence'!

True & I've done it, may do it again, but it's not the most ethical way to do things.

[MIKE]

Yes, but don't you think that eliminating TIG for all the ranks in phase I, making TIG for phase II 1 month/achievement, and keeping everything else the same would be easier to implement?

No, 'cause then you will have cadets basically just testing every week so they can promote within the month.

[AlphaSigOU]

I know of no reg forbidding Capt Harris from sharing an idea with one or more CAC reps, as long as it is stated as such, no hint of 'command influence'!

I thought Cap'n Harris was my counterpart in NV Wing as Wing CAC Senior Advisor? I don't see a problem, either.