Getting SQTR signed off.

[esilassy]

Why do I fell like I need to sacrifice my oldest child to get items signed off on my SQTR's?  I know you need to actually know the stuff, and I'm fine with that, but give me the opportunity to train.  First aid quals?  Get a big shoulder shrug.  I've think I might actually get my radio quals soon, thanks to one of the actually organized members in our squadron.  And what about the 2 missions you need to get signed off on?  Is there any way to get signed off unless you get 2 actual missions?  Our squadron has been active for 2 years, and we have had a whopping 2 missions.  I recieved credit for one, but wan't a member for the other one.  Oh, this is for GT3. 

[arajca]

Have your unit ES officer or commander take it up with your group or wing ES officer. Unfortunately, many units operate as independent islands and never bother to let anyone else know when they're doing training.

For first aid, if your Red Cross or equivalent first aid training, give a copy of your un-expired card to your unit for their files and enter it in the online SQTR.

If you have someone from outside the unit giving the radio training, ask them if they know of any other units doing GTM training. 

Mission signoffs can be real world, exercises, or training classes.

[esilassy]

Thanks for the info!

you need a mission number to get signed off on right?  our ES officer said it was really hard to get a mission number for training, which is why we don't get mission numbers.......  Take that how you will.

*******I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT I AM UPSET WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING!!*********

I'm just hardwired to get things done.  I hate waiting on what seems to be others. 

[arajca]

For task sign-offs, a mission number is not required. For mission participation, it generally is, however, it does not have to be a real world mission, it can be an exercise. For training missions, it takes filling out paperwork and planning. you'd need an operations plan (search for 'Ops Plan' here for examples) which includes safety and communications plans. Submit it and a CAPF 10(?) to request a mission number. If you are doing a unit training mission, you can apply for an "unfunded" mission number, which means no AF money is spent on it.

[esilassy]

Once again, thank you!

[RiverAux]

It is very easy to get an unfunded AFAM mission number for a local training exercise.  If your ES officer thinks its hard, he may not be the right person for the job.  That is unless your Wing has imposed some crazy requirements of its own that makes it hard to do. 

[davidsinn]

It is very easy to get an unfunded AFAM mission number for a local training exercise.  If your ES officer thinks its hard, he may not be the right person for the job.  That is unless your Wing has imposed some crazy requirements of its own that makes it hard to do.

My wing requires an MSO or MSO(T) to be present for the training. Since there is only one within 100 miles of us I have not been able to secure a number yet. It's rather frustrating.

[RiverAux]

I assume you're working on the obvious solution to that issue? 

Of course, if you get an unfunded mission number there will be an IC for the mission and they can fulfill that role (just as they do for ELT-type missions where I've never heard of an MSO being assigned). 

[davidsinn]

I assume you're working on the obvious solution to that issue? 

Of course, if you get an unfunded mission number there will be an IC for the mission and they can fulfill that role (just as they do for ELT-type missions where I've never heard of an MSO being assigned).

The obvious solution requires ICS 300 and 400 and that's not an easy thing to get done. The problem I have is the IC need not be present but the MSO MUST be on site where the training occurs. The closest IC is around 100 miles from me. There is no easy way to get this done.

[Eclipse]

I assume you're working on the obvious solution to that issue? 

Of course, if you get an unfunded mission number there will be an IC for the mission and they can fulfill that role (just as they do for ELT-type missions where I've never heard of an MSO being assigned).

Further, how does your wing handle the monthly proficiency AFAMS?  There's rarely if ever IC's or other staff involved in those.

[davidsinn]

I assume you're working on the obvious solution to that issue? 

Of course, if you get an unfunded mission number there will be an IC for the mission and they can fulfill that role (just as they do for ELT-type missions where I've never heard of an MSO being assigned).

Further, how does your wing handle the monthly proficiency AFAMS?

I know they have a monthly mission number but other than that I have no idea.

[heliodoc]

MSO's onsite at ICS 300 and ICS 400??

Who came up with that?  Meeting the FEMA hour requirements are what should be the driving factor and certificates indicating such

What CAPer dreamed THAT up?  FEMA courses taught by folks who have had L449  or M410 NWCG or have been through that gamut is all you should need.  Some or most VFD's and EMA's are teaching this and CAP ought to abide by that......just another CAP and CAPer hurdle to keep somebody at the Wing happy

MSO on site??  Nonsense!!   Let see that in a Wing reg....

[davidsinn]

MSO's onsite at ICS 300 and ICS 400??

Who came up with that?  Meeting the FEMA hour requirements are what should be the driving factor and certificates indicating such

What CAPer dreamed THAT up?  FEMA courses taught by folks who have had L449  or M410 NWCG or have been through that gamut is all you should need.  Some or most VFD's and EMA's are teaching this and CAP ought to abide by that......just another CAP and CAPer hurdle to keep somebody at the Wing happy

MSO on site??  Nonsense!!   Let see that in a Wing reg....

You're a bit confused. I need an MSO to get a mission number. If I grow my own I need that person to get 300 and 400 per the MSO SQTR. Two separate problems that work together to screw me over.

[Eclipse]

I know they have a monthly mission number but other than that I have no idea.

Time to look into that - there's a monthly mission number posted for aircrews to fly self-funded proficiency sorties that can be found in the back of the regulations.  They have to fly the profiles, and complete all the requisite paperwork, etc., but all that is needed is gas money and a qualified crew.

At least one of these involves air-to-ground coordination, which needs a UDF or Ground team to accomplish. 

These sorties can be used for both initial and recurrent mission credit (at least in my wing). Pretty much ended any issues of "not enough missions".  The USAF is heartily encouraging our people flying these profiles and getting B-mission status so that out aircrew get more protection and benefits in the event of something "exciting" happening.

[davidsinn]

I know they have a monthly mission number but other than that I have no idea.

Time to look into that - there's a monthly mission number posted for aircrews to fly self-funded proficiency sorties that can be found in the back of the regulations.  They have to fly the profiles, and complete all the requisite paperwork, etc., but all that is needed is gas money and a qualified crew.

At least one of these involves air-to-ground coordination, which needs a UDF or Ground team to accomplish. 

These sorties can be used for both initial and recurrent mission credit (at least in my wing). Pretty much ended any issues of "not enough missions".  The USAF is heartily encouraging our people flying these profiles and getting B-mission status so that out aircrew get more protection and benefits in the event of something "exciting" happening.

That's good for ground team. What about training for flightline? My airport twice requested our support for fly-ins and we couldn't do it because I couldn't get a mission number because I couldn't get an MSO that was available. I'm at a loss on how to train my people because you can only do so much in the classroom before you need to get out and handle an aircraft.

[esilassy]

You guys (and gals) get MONTHLY mission numbers?  I'm moving. It seems like no one wants to go the extra mile so us newer people can get things signed off.  Like I said, our squadron is only 2 years old and our commander is GT1, and we have only had 2 actual missions and no training missions...............
I'm one of, if not the youngest Senior Member in our unit.  Wouldn't it make sense that they would want to help me get certified because of that?  I'm in ok physical shape, but I have a lot of years left in me to devote to CAP.  Man, I'm a whiny bi&^h!  Must redirect negative to positive...... 


I love CAP!!

[davidsinn]

You guys (and gals) get MONTHLY mission numbers?  I'm moving. It seems like no one wants to go the extra mile so us newer people can get things signed off.  Like I said, our squadron is only 2 years old and our commander is GT1, and we have only had 2 actual missions and no training missions...............
I'm one of, if not the youngest Senior Member in our unit.  Wouldn't it make sense that they would want to help me get certified because of that?  I'm in ok physical shape, but I have a lot of years left in me to devote to CAP.  Man, I'm a whiny bi&^h!  Must redirect negative to positive...... 


I love CAP!!

AFAIK those numbers are for air sorties only. I've never tried to do ground work on one. I'll try and figure that out later in the fall.

[Eclipse]

You guys (and gals) get MONTHLY mission numbers?  I'm moving. It seems like no one wants to go the extra mile so us newer people can get things signed off.  Like I said, our squadron is only 2 years old and our commander is GT1, and we have only had 2 actual missions and no training missions...............
I'm one of, if not the youngest Senior Member in our unit.  Wouldn't it make sense that they would want to help me get certified because of that?  I'm in ok physical shape, but I have a lot of years left in me to devote to CAP.  Man, I'm a whiny bi&^h!  Must redirect negative to positive...... 


I love CAP!!

AFAIK those numbers are for air sorties only. I've never tried to do ground work on one. I'll try and figure that out later in the fall.

They are primarily focused on aircrew proficiency, however as I said, other personnel involved can also receive credit.  Some of this requires some creativity and work with your Wing staff to make things happen. 

[heliodoc]

Here is some "creativity" for davidsinn Wing

DO the !@@# job or really find some one who can.  Some of the "volunteers" who think that wearing the uniform does not come with some responsibility.  There ought to be some volunteer fanny being kicked by some of those Wing GOB's who can not get their butts out of the chair let alone Wing HQ

Creativity??  That IS the reason CAP's "training standards" are not always recognized by all

The organization can not, in some cases, take its own SQTR's seriously enough to get accomplished

[RiverAux]

I hate to say it, but heliodoc has a point here.  Put together an OPPLAN and request that Wing Staff find a MSO for you and send them down to the exercise. 

[davidsinn]

I hate to say it, but heliodoc has a point here.  Put together an OPPLAN and request that Wing Staff find a MSO for you and send them down to the exercise.

I've put together two OPPLANS already. I was told I need to find an IC and and MSO. I was supplied with a list of both by wing. No MSO has been able/willing to come to my location. I've done my job.

My question is: Is the onsite MSO an NHQ requirement or is it a local requirement?

[Eclipse]

My question is: Is the onsite MSO an NHQ requirement or is it a local requirement?

Local.

There's no actual staff requirement beyond the IC.  Any staff position that needs to be done based on operational requirements becomes the IC's responsibility until someone is appointed.

Its an understandable request, but should not stand in the way of training when no one can be found who is willing or able to do the job.  I know in my wing there weren't that many MSO's to start with, and there are going to be less in about a week or so.

[heliodoc]

Why is that, Eclipse?

No one mentoring MSO's?  No one stepping up?  Wing on its laurels??

If this is simple sign offs that do not require moving 50 State logistics, as many SQTR tasks are, this is what makes CAP lame in training.

I can see NASAR but not CAP when it meets at least once a week

Davidsinn's problems ARE CAP's problems and so is your issue of no MSO's

No Mentorship.... No training = a lame CAP training program

HR1178 out to demonstrate this.....CAP's training program needs to be bolstered BEFORE it even can take on any more missions above aand beyond the ones illustrated here, that itself can not handle.

If I were a Congressmonkey....I would asssssk for a no____ no ___ assessment of CAP's true training
If what above is going on... I would say CAP would need to pay attention to its own SQTR problems BEFORE getting ANYMORE DHS HLS type missions

If Wings can not get it together at the local level.. Congress should not even consider CAP for anything UNTIL they clean their own training programs and STAND them UP!!!

[NC Hokie]

I've put together two OPPLANS already. I was told I need to find an IC and and MSO. I was supplied with a list of both by wing. No MSO has been able/willing to come to my location. I've done my job.

My advice (for whatever it is worth) would be to document the inability to find a MSO willing to assist you and prepare a report for your CC to forward on to your group and wing ES staff as well as the wing CC.  If there's no action within 30 days, send a copy of that report to the region ES staff and CC.

BTW, have you asked about having your squadron Safety Officer stand in for the MSO?

[RiverAux]

I agree that it would be ideal to have an MSO on hand, but the reality is that on most missions the MSO hangs around base, looks at vehicles and airplanes, and rarely gets out and actually supervises any real training where they may spot some safety violations. 

I agree with NC Hokies approach on this issue. 

[Larry Mangum]

I know every wing has its own requiremnts, but in my expereicne, if a unit wants to do training within the local area, that does not involve aircraft, a simple oplan being submitted to wing ES, outlining:

• What the Objective is, i.e. Ground team, UDF, ELT proficency, etc.
• Location
• Duration
• Required Resources
• ORM Assessment
• Instructor Qualifications

containng the above information is provided it should not be impossible to get a unfunded mission number.  Including a designated safety officer and contact information is icing on the cake.

[Eclipse]

No one mentoring MSO's?  No one stepping up?  Wing on its laurels?

How about the simple idea that no one right now is particularly interested in being an MSO?  Or those that are aren't particularly interested in driving the 200+ miles round trip to make sure no one walks into a prop.

No wing laurels, just the lack of interested people.  No amount of professional training, outreach, whatever, can change that easily, and since MSO is not an NHQ mandated staff position (important but not required), this should not be an issue when trying to do training.

About every third thread you complain about how busy you are and how your CAP time is focused on
your own flying.  Multiply that by the other wings and that's the issue.

[a2capt]

Simple task training and re-currency can be done without any intervention from above or mission numbers. While performing these during a mission is more desirable, it's not necessary.

What is needed is any wing or region supplements that spell out who and what qualifications your trainer needs to have, if any more than the National Regulations call for.

You can learn all that stuff, and then be signed off without a mission. You do need two mission participations (on most) and it just so happens that accomplishing some of that during them is most certainly desirable, but it's certainly not possible to learn it all and be evaluated during said mission participations nor is it probably the most effective teaching environment.

That said, you do find, sadly, that there are a fair amount of folks in the position of power to wield the pen like sword and tell you they won't do it unless, or because, or whatever - and without opening a huge Pandoras Box, I will say that some of these folks are the *BEST* recruiters that CAP has for the cadet program.

What do I mean by that?

Folks join CAP for ES and get sick and tired of dealing with the pure crap thrown at them and either bail out of the program or find other areas of it to give their services and time to. Cadets, Aerospace, etc - and find a lot more welcoming hands there awaiting.

[KyCAP]

Local.

Our CAP-USAF LO would probably stop the training of anything more than 1 plane or 1 ground team without a Safety Officer on-site..  So, it has been my picture of running about 15 SAREXs as the IC that while it's not a NHQ "requirement" that is a CAP-USAF "consideration".

[Eclipse]

Local.

Our CAP-USAF LO would probably stop the training of anything more than 1 plane or 1 ground team without a Safety Officer on-site..  So, it has been my picture of running about 15 SAREXs as the IC that while it's not a NHQ "requirement" that is a CAP-USAF "consideration".

I'll have to leave that to your local understanding of the situation, however that's not the case one click West.

We take Safety seriously, and insure the duties are covered regardless, but you don't grind operations to a halt simply because of the lack of any respective specialty or staffer - the operational responsibility shifts to the IC, and its up to him to make sure it gets done.

Every plan should seek out an MSO by design, but lack of one should not be a show-, or plan-, stopper or bottleneck.  In Wings where that is the case...I'd have to...((*gack*))...agr...((*urp*))ee...with...((*ugh*))...Helio in that it'd be the Wing's responsibility to insure an MSO is there.

You can't have it both ways if you're causing the bottleneck.

[KyCAP]

Agreed. The Wing should support the MSO functin.  Speaking of...

Isn't ICS 400 required for MSO by 9/30 of this month or "caput".

[Eclipse]

Agreed. The Wing should support the MSO functin.  Speaking of...

Isn't ICS 400 required for MSO by 9/30 of this month or "caput".

Yes, thus my comment about having "less" in about a week.

[Short Field]

I just reviewed the SQTR for the MSO and most of the tasks were in support of the IC.  If a MSO wasn't there, the IC just accomplished the functions.  I have rarely had a MSO sign in on a SAR or SAREX.  With only a few exceptions, it was just someone getting renewed who hung around the minimum amount of time before leaving.

[KyCAP]

Just goes to show it's done differently... really.. in our wing if there wasn't an MSO or a person to "be" the MSO (supplied by someone) there would be no SAREX or a big poo pile.   Safety is the culture.

[Eclipse]

I just reviewed the SQTR for the MSO and most of the tasks were in support of the IC.

Yep, I found out the other day that I am ICS 400 away from being an MSO myself, without even trying.
So I'll likely take care of it so that I can help when needed, but it wasn't something I was doing on purpose.

[SarMaster]

Why is it so hard to get a mission number?  What wing are you in?  We can get a mission number in a few days with a simple 1 page request.

Monthly mission numbers are for PILOT and AIRCREW proficiency flights....ONLY...  The crew has to fly a profile per the 60-1.  Proficiency is not an initial certification...  Many times a prof. flight (1 hour ) are used for initial qualls, or multiple exercise participation credit and kicked back.  You need to have oversight of an IC.. ect for mission credit.... not to mention a REAL ES Mission number.

With the new regs all 'evaluators' have to be approved by wing HQ...  That is all well and good. Except there is still a  missing link...   Scenario.....lets say that a dishonest CAP member ( I know we don't have any of those) got a evaluators CAP ID ....he could then go into ops quals  and use the evaluators ID for a task sign off , or for mission participation...its a legal evaluators CAPID on the SQTR...so who is going to question it?

BIG PROBLEM NATIONWIDE.... Evaluators have to report an AAR with the roster of who was signed off, that roster needs to be referenced during validations.....or the system has a giant hole in it.


Any Comments?

[Short Field]

Mission numbers for unfunded missions are too simple to do.  When I was the Wing ESO, all I needed to do was keep a list of the mission numbers I used for unfunded missions.  The list never went any where so I think it was just to make sure I didn't use the same number twice.  All it took for a mission number was a phone call or email.  Funded missions are suppose to arrive at the Region LO at least 30 days prior to the event.