Major SQTR loophole fixed

[floridacyclist]

When I mentioned SETs approving signoffs claimed for them, I wasn't thinking so much about micromanaging as making it easier for those of us whose CC insists on verifying completion of tasks. His reasoning is that since there are no signatures on the SQTR, he wants to see something in writing or verbally from the SQTRs claimed. We have yet to test his policies as he is new and nobody has signed off on anything yet (actually, they have, but he wasn't officially the commmander yet, so I approved them having supervised their training and evaluation). The old commander wasn't any better......taking forever to approve stuff and asking me at one point how was he supposed to know what he was approving, but at least he did approve our folks after i assured him that i had been there and the signoffs were valid. One of my friends in Gp 3 is still fighting to get his SQTRs approved after a year  because the CC feels that his tasks were pencil-whipped.

Like I said, this wouldn't just be about fraud, although there are plenty of folks around who will claim stuff they haven't earned if they can get away with it (not that we haven't seen some of that lately on the board) and if they will claim Ranger status, you know they wouldn't feel any qualms about claiming they kept a log.

It is also about accidental signoffs...folks who aren't clear on the training standards. I get asked all the time if so-and-so can use my CAPID since they did such-and-such on one of my missions and I have to explain the whole process of a formal evaluation to them. Another advantage would be that SETs would be electronically approved to sign off. We have had a situation where a very sharp C/1st Lt was signing off on all kinds of things for people, but when I looked him up to see exactly where I could use him, he only had GES in the system.  I'm not sure if he understood the process or not, but we had a big mess to clean up; his commander instructed everyone to change the cadet's CAPID to his and he'd take responsibility; not the cleanest way tmore accountable if they knew that they were o handle it, but the physically verifying completion of training on a task expedient one.

SETs would be much more diligent in approving folks if they realized that their online approval was much more binding than a signature-less piece of paper with some CAPIDs on it. Knowing that any future shortcomings of your trainees may very well come back to haunt you would make most folks try a little harder to ensure that the minimum level of training is met before clicking "approve"; repeated patterns of clueless trainess would result in revocation of SET privileges.

[cnitas]

Previously the unit ES officer (by duty position) could approve a completed SQTR at unit level.  Does that capability still exist, and has it been extended to these new approval steps?

I verified last night that NO, a unit ES officer cannot approve this.  Strange since the SQTR says CC 'or approved designee'.  Perhaps there is a way to become a designee beyond being the squadron ES officer?

I fear this is going to cause some problems...

[Matt]

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.

Point two: I know I'm probably lacking coffee at this hour, but what is the point with it?  Or is it just being a statement, because if so, yes, I concur whole heartedly, and enjoy the transfer of data from WMU to MIMS, makes life... groovy.

However, if you're saying it to state that it feeds MIMS without proper authorization: i.e. it shows as though there are approvals that aren't, then I would have to turn my intrigue up.  WMU only accepts SET Qual'd individuals (with the switch on), without the switch, as I'm to understand it, someone with SET and the rating has to verify completion of so-said tasks.  Perhaps I'm way off on it, but I'm fairly certain that is how the system works.

[arajca]

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.

Point two: I know I'm probably lacking coffee at this hour, but what is the point with it?  Or is it just being a statement, because if so, yes, I concur whole heartedly, and enjoy the transfer of data from WMU to MIMS, makes life... groovy.

However, if you're saying it to state that it feeds MIMS without proper authorization: i.e. it shows as though there are approvals that aren't, then I would have to turn my intrigue up.  WMU only accepts SET Qual'd individuals (with the switch on), without the switch, as I'm to understand it, someone with SET and the rating has to verify completion of so-said tasks.  Perhaps I'm way off on it, but I'm fairly certain that is how the system works.

My mistake. I meant to say "WMU does NOT feed into MIMS." It was late.

WMU will take information from MIMS to update the WMU database, but MIMS will not, and from what I have heard from National IT will never, accept information from WMU. Or any other outside system.

[Tubacap]

Okay, I may be dense, but I talked with my CC last night and got the okay to put in his CAPID for PSC Trainee status.  Plugged in the numbers, and pressed submit.  It said my tasks were submitted, but then, they were removed.  Where did they go?  Does he have to do anything?

[Matt]

My mistake. I meant to say "WMU does NOT feed into MIMS." It was late.

WMU will take information from MIMS to update the WMU database, but MIMS will not, and from what I have heard from National IT will never, accept information from WMU. Or any other outside system.

No problemo.  Happens to the best of us.  Come to think of it, the only portions that DO feed into MIMS are the full qualifications, i.e. GTM3, GBD, MP, etc, so your are correct, the individual tasks don't import, which really isn't much of a biggy in the broad scheme of it, provided that the wing is set to one system and not both.

[arajca]

The problem with using one or the other is what happens when you go to a wing that doesn't use WMU? If your info is not in MIMS - which is the official record - you are not qualified.

[floridacyclist]

Sure you are...you go online and print out your 101 card and present it. Then you print out your SQTR worksheets and transcribe the numbers onto a real SQTR and get your new CC to sign where necessary.....if (s)he will.

[arajca]

Works for a transfer, but what about cross-border assistance?

[floridacyclist]

Take your 101 card. We train our hams to do that....take all paperwork since they have no idea who you are and even if they are on IMU, if they're not online they might not be able to verify you...always take the paperwork even for an IMU mission.

I saw a large mission grind to a halt because IMU went down and nobody had any ICSF211s

Since Tallahassee is so close to the line, I specify GA, AL, and FL when downloading the database since we get so many visitors, especially for training.

[BlackKnight]

Okay, I may be dense, but I talked with my CC last night and got the okay to put in his CAPID for PSC Trainee status.  Plugged in the numbers, and pressed submit.  It said my tasks were submitted, but then, they were removed.  Where did they go?  Does he have to do anything?

We did pretty much the same thing, tried to update a bunch of the open SQTRs in my squadron after getting unit CC verbal approval.  Only problem is that the system bypassed our unit CC and kicked all those SQTR interim approvals straight up to Group command!  The group commander was a bit unnerved to receive automated emails for 30+ SQTR approvals!

I do think they have a "human-factors" problem with the programming of this new interim approval module.  As Tubacap correctly points out, when a member enters the interim approval date it is erased after the "submit" button is clicked. The date won't reappear in the SQTR worksheet until after commander approval is obtained. This quirk will probably cause quite a few multiple-submittals because members will naturally conclude their first few attempts were unsuccessful...

[floridacyclist]

How does one issue a mass verbal approval for that many SQTRs. How did you run the evaluation?

[Fifinella]

As an aside, it sounds as though a few folks here may not be aware they can get hard copy SQTRs  that *do* have a space for SQ/CC signature.  (Although they are less convenient than printing the ones in Ops Quals.)

For those who may not know:
From the Members page (cap.gov website), select the Operations link from the left side column
ON the Operations page, scroll down until you see Links to Operations Resources, below which is Training Materials

Three lines below that is: All SQTRs in PDF format
clicking that will put you here: https://ntc.cap.af.mil/es/sqtrs/sqtrs.cfm
These SQTRs all have signature lines.

[RiverAux]

haven't really seen many people use them lately since the personalized ones that automatically fill in your already approved tasks are so handy. 

[BlackKnight]

How does one issue a mass verbal approval for that many SQTRs. How did you run the evaluation?

You misunderstood.  These were already open SQTRs with the prerequisite and/or preparatory training already completed.  The interim approvals were already on our paper copies of the SQTRs but there was never a way to enter those interim approvals in MIMS.  Now there is. The MIMS entries are simply duplications of approvals that were previously granted.

[ammotrucker]

When I mentioned SETs approving signoffs claimed for them, I wasn't thinking so much about micromanaging as making it easier for those of us whose CC insists on verifying completion of tasks. His reasoning is that since there are no signatures on the SQTR, he wants to see something in writing or verbally from the SQTRs claimed. We have yet to test his policies as he is new and nobody has signed off on anything yet (actually, they have, but he wasn't officially the commmander yet, so I approved them having supervised their training and evaluation). The old commander wasn't any better......taking forever to approve stuff and asking me at one point how was he supposed to know what he was approving, but at least he did approve our folks after i assured him that i had been there and the signoffs were valid. One of my friends in Gp 3 is still fighting to get his SQTRs approved after a year  because the CC feels that his tasks were pencil-whipped.

Like I said, this wouldn't just be about fraud, although there are plenty of folks around who will claim stuff they haven't earned if they can get away with it (not that we haven't seen some of that lately on the board) and if they will claim Ranger status, you know they wouldn't feel any qualms about claiming they kept a log.


SETs would be much more diligent in approving folks if they realized that their online approval was much more binding than a signature-less piece of paper with some CAPIDs on it. Knowing that any future shortcomings of your trainees may very well come back to haunt you would make most folks try a little harder to ensure that the minimum level of training is met before clicking "approve"; repeated patterns of clueless trainess would result in revocation of SET privileges.

Why not ask for a system that the SET must enter each accomplishment

[RiverAux]

Okay, so there is a particular qualification in which I've met all the pre-requisites and the basic training requirements.  So, I wanted to get in line with this new requirement, and as I understood it, I just needed to enter in the "pending dates" in the 2 commander approval tasks and then they would be sent up for approval.  However, while the system has accepted those dates, nothing is showing up in any pending approvals folder and the qualification isn't showing up on my 101 card with a training * like it is supposed to.

What did I do wrong?

[BlackKnight]

...What did I do wrong?

Probably nothing.  Ask your unit CC if the approval request is showing up in his list.  When he approves it your 101 card will be updated and will show you as a supervised trainee in that task.  These "interim approvals" may not show up as "pending approvals" the same way that completed SQTRs do.