Major SQTR loophole fixed

[RiverAux]

According to an update on the e-services page they've finally fixed a major loophole/problem in the online SQTRs.  Basically, in the past if you had completed the pre-requisites & fam/prep sections  for any specialty you could print out an SQTR that would look like you were ready to do the mission as a trainee and it would shop up on your 101 as if you were a trainee.  As anyone who has seen an actual SQTR knows, you need the signature of your commander/designee for the completion of the pre-requisites and the fam/prep sections before you could serve as a trainee in that job. 

Now, they apparently have it set up so that when you finish each of those sections your commander/designee has to approve you to advance to the next level in that specialty. 

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone. 

Good progress. 

[_]

It looks like it just needs a CAP ID and date like a regular task not an actual approval by the commander his or her self through the system.  If that's the case it'd be easy to get around.

[SJFedor]

Nope, when you enter in the date, it goes to your commander for approval in MIMS. It won't show up with a * on your 101 card until they approve it in the system.

[floridacyclist]

It's about time! Of course, just today as part of our scanner class, I remarked about there being no place on the SQTR worksheet for a SQ CC's signature. It looks like now there is for all practical purposes.

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

[SarDragon]

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone.

Where does it say that? IIRC, that applied only to the olde 101 cards.

[JC004]

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone.

Where does it say that? IIRC, that applied only to the olde 101 cards.

Agree.  The three rule died with the 101T cards.  I remember this coming up at my CTTT course at the Philadelphia National Board.

[IceNine]

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

That would be great but the regs say that the task must be approved by the unit CC or designee. 

[floridacyclist]

No, I mean each individual task....like if I put in MIMS that you evaluated and approved me on "C-4002 DEMONSTRATE ABILITY TO DEVELOP AND APPROVE AN INCIDENT ACTION PLAN (ICS FORMS 202-206 WITH ATTACHMENTS)" it would then pop up on your screen as something for you to approve under your approvals waiting.

By the time that the unit commander got in to approve me for "Agency Liaison", he would at least know that each individual task had been approved by the SET who had signed off. Sort of an electronic replacement for having to see the completed SQTR and much more secure since the paper version only requires a CAPID and date, not a signature.

The System could also verify that the person you claimed signed off on your task was eligible to before even allowing you to save it.

One of the problems that I do have with the current system is that if even if the CC does ask for an SQTR and you produce one..if he looks up the person that you claim signed off on an individual task and calls him, he may or may not remember what and who he signed off on at "The Mother of ALL ES Bivouacs" a year and a half ago.

By making it pop up on the SET's screen as soon as you input it, at least he can verify it while he still remembers. If the SET doesn't do computers or is downright lazy and I can verify in other ways to the CC that the tasks were signed off (back to original paperwork or a 112 or the like) then the CC can override the lack of SET verification and approve me anyway.

[Eclipse]

If the SET doesn't do computers...

I'm sorry, but you can't be considered an asset in this organization anymore if you don't "do computers".

A harsh reality for those who aren't interested in getting up to speed, but these are the times in which we live.

[floridacyclist]

Harsh reality or not, if I'm sitting there waiting for a specialty to be approved and the SET doesn't do computers, has blown up his computer, or may no longer even be a member, I would want there to be some sort of fallback mechanism where the Sq CC can approve me without the SET's electronic agreement.

Whether the SET is considered an asset or not does not matter to a 14yo C/Sgt waiting for GTM approval.

[arajca]

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

There come a time when you needs to trust that the members are doing the right thing. Micro-management is a bad thing. And why, as a SET, should I have to approve the same thing twice? Consider that on a training mission or class, you could have 10 or 15 people completing tasks and getting signed off on their SQTR's. Then each member enters the completion of each of the 7 tasks they were signed off on in E-services. You think the SET should spend a couple hours approving 70 to 105 tasks that they already signed off on? For each poser who games the system, there are 100's who use it correctly. Adding that kind of a burden would make me de-certify myself as SET. I just don't have the time.

[RiverAux]

Good point. 

The current change closed a loophole in which someone, with good intentions, could accidentally get themselves in trouble by training for something without their commander's permission. 

Requiring SETs to online validate tasks would really be more of a fraud prevention check.  Frankly, I've never heard of anyone trying to "forge" CAP IDs and dates on their SQTR though I imagine it probably has happened.  The question is whether or not it is a big enough problem to make it worth the time of SETs to fix.  I think not.  I'm fairly confident that such fraud would be caught fairly quickly if attempted as things are now.

[floridacyclist]

If an SET evaluated and approved 70 to 105 tasks in a session, unless that evaluation session lasted all day, I would say that there was some major pencil-whipping going on. It takes longer than a couple of minutes per task to go through each of the P/F questions at the end of the task. Besides, most testing sessions have more than one SET available for signing off....especially if you have 10-15 students being tested. Even so, it wouldn't be that difficult for an SET to open his E-services, look at the list of waiting approvals to make sure he recognizes them all and perhaps compare them to his records from that day, hit select all then approve.

This is not just about trust, it is also about members not being totally sure what constitutes a proper sign-off. I have had members put down a CAPID and date because they did something in front of somebody (with or without that person's cognizance) that in their mind meant demonstrating competence on that task regardless of the stated procedure for evaluating a task (ie the P/F questions at the end of each task).

Besides, if we are simply supposed to trust our people, then why bother even having the CC sign off? Just take the member's word that he knows what he is talking about.

[RiverAux]

Remember that many, many of the tasks can be done by written quizes which could be done in a classroom with 20+ people in it.

Besides, if we are simply supposed to trust our people, then why bother even having the CC sign off? Just take the member's word that he knows what he is talking about.

Because the regulation says not that they should. 

[floridacyclist]

Remember that many, many of the tasks can be done by written quizes which could be done in a classroom with 20+ people in it.

In which case you can just hit select all and approve. No fuss, no muss. It takes a lot less time to verify your approval online than it did to evaluate or sign off in the first place.

[davedove]

The current change closed a loophole in which someone, with good intentions, could accidentally get themselves in trouble by training for something without their commander's permission. 

I agree with this, and I do believe the change is a good idea.  It also cleans up my 101 quite a bit.  The downside is that those of us currently training in a specialty have had our trainee status drop off and it will have to be re-entered.

[Galahad]

A couple of questions that I couldn't find answers to in the e-services news blurb:

(1) For new training, can you still mix and match SQTR task entries for both preparatory and advanced training?  Much of our training is inter-related:  For example, GTM3/GTM2/GTM1/UDF, and MS/MO.  We teach both the preparatory and advanced stuff in the same day or weekend.  Will the new logic block SQTR task entries in the advanced block until the preparatory block is completed and approved?   Will MIMS still "cross-populate" identical tasks across SQTRs even if those SQTRs have not been "opened" by the unit commander for said member?

(2) I know several unit commanders who can barely log themselves into e-services, let alone keep up with ES approvals.  This is going to drive them batty.  Previously the unit ES officer (by duty position) could approve a completed SQTR at unit level.  Does that capability still exist, and has it been extended to these new approval steps?

[Matt]

Just to be the stick in the mud I am... seems as though WMU took care of this before it started...

You find the respective input listing, provided you're currently assigned as an evaluator (not just SET) you may enter taskings accordingly.  Plus, your CC must approve each stage of training, i.e. Prereq, Prep, Adv, then Wing approves them.

[ZigZag911]

Without getting into the pros & cons of micro-management, closing this gap in the SQTR process is a good thing in terms of ensuring proper training and quality control.

[arajca]

Just to be the stick in the mud I am... seems as though WMU took care of this before it started...

You find the respective input listing, provided you're currently assigned as an evaluator (not just SET) you may enter taskings accordingly.  Plus, your CC must approve each stage of training, i.e. Prereq, Prep, Adv, then Wing approves them.

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.

[floridacyclist]

When I mentioned SETs approving signoffs claimed for them, I wasn't thinking so much about micromanaging as making it easier for those of us whose CC insists on verifying completion of tasks. His reasoning is that since there are no signatures on the SQTR, he wants to see something in writing or verbally from the SQTRs claimed. We have yet to test his policies as he is new and nobody has signed off on anything yet (actually, they have, but he wasn't officially the commmander yet, so I approved them having supervised their training and evaluation). The old commander wasn't any better......taking forever to approve stuff and asking me at one point how was he supposed to know what he was approving, but at least he did approve our folks after i assured him that i had been there and the signoffs were valid. One of my friends in Gp 3 is still fighting to get his SQTRs approved after a year  because the CC feels that his tasks were pencil-whipped.

Like I said, this wouldn't just be about fraud, although there are plenty of folks around who will claim stuff they haven't earned if they can get away with it (not that we haven't seen some of that lately on the board) and if they will claim Ranger status, you know they wouldn't feel any qualms about claiming they kept a log.

It is also about accidental signoffs...folks who aren't clear on the training standards. I get asked all the time if so-and-so can use my CAPID since they did such-and-such on one of my missions and I have to explain the whole process of a formal evaluation to them. Another advantage would be that SETs would be electronically approved to sign off. We have had a situation where a very sharp C/1st Lt was signing off on all kinds of things for people, but when I looked him up to see exactly where I could use him, he only had GES in the system.  I'm not sure if he understood the process or not, but we had a big mess to clean up; his commander instructed everyone to change the cadet's CAPID to his and he'd take responsibility; not the cleanest way tmore accountable if they knew that they were o handle it, but the physically verifying completion of training on a task expedient one.

SETs would be much more diligent in approving folks if they realized that their online approval was much more binding than a signature-less piece of paper with some CAPIDs on it. Knowing that any future shortcomings of your trainees may very well come back to haunt you would make most folks try a little harder to ensure that the minimum level of training is met before clicking "approve"; repeated patterns of clueless trainess would result in revocation of SET privileges.

[cnitas]

Previously the unit ES officer (by duty position) could approve a completed SQTR at unit level.  Does that capability still exist, and has it been extended to these new approval steps?

I verified last night that NO, a unit ES officer cannot approve this.  Strange since the SQTR says CC 'or approved designee'.  Perhaps there is a way to become a designee beyond being the squadron ES officer?

I fear this is going to cause some problems...

[Matt]

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.

Point two: I know I'm probably lacking coffee at this hour, but what is the point with it?  Or is it just being a statement, because if so, yes, I concur whole heartedly, and enjoy the transfer of data from WMU to MIMS, makes life... groovy.

However, if you're saying it to state that it feeds MIMS without proper authorization: i.e. it shows as though there are approvals that aren't, then I would have to turn my intrigue up.  WMU only accepts SET Qual'd individuals (with the switch on), without the switch, as I'm to understand it, someone with SET and the rating has to verify completion of so-said tasks.  Perhaps I'm way off on it, but I'm fairly certain that is how the system works.

[arajca]

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.

Point two: I know I'm probably lacking coffee at this hour, but what is the point with it?  Or is it just being a statement, because if so, yes, I concur whole heartedly, and enjoy the transfer of data from WMU to MIMS, makes life... groovy.

However, if you're saying it to state that it feeds MIMS without proper authorization: i.e. it shows as though there are approvals that aren't, then I would have to turn my intrigue up.  WMU only accepts SET Qual'd individuals (with the switch on), without the switch, as I'm to understand it, someone with SET and the rating has to verify completion of so-said tasks.  Perhaps I'm way off on it, but I'm fairly certain that is how the system works.

My mistake. I meant to say "WMU does NOT feed into MIMS." It was late.

WMU will take information from MIMS to update the WMU database, but MIMS will not, and from what I have heard from National IT will never, accept information from WMU. Or any other outside system.

[Tubacap]

Okay, I may be dense, but I talked with my CC last night and got the okay to put in his CAPID for PSC Trainee status.  Plugged in the numbers, and pressed submit.  It said my tasks were submitted, but then, they were removed.  Where did they go?  Does he have to do anything?

[Matt]

My mistake. I meant to say "WMU does NOT feed into MIMS." It was late.

WMU will take information from MIMS to update the WMU database, but MIMS will not, and from what I have heard from National IT will never, accept information from WMU. Or any other outside system.

No problemo.  Happens to the best of us.  Come to think of it, the only portions that DO feed into MIMS are the full qualifications, i.e. GTM3, GBD, MP, etc, so your are correct, the individual tasks don't import, which really isn't much of a biggy in the broad scheme of it, provided that the wing is set to one system and not both.

[arajca]

The problem with using one or the other is what happens when you go to a wing that doesn't use WMU? If your info is not in MIMS - which is the official record - you are not qualified.

[floridacyclist]

Sure you are...you go online and print out your 101 card and present it. Then you print out your SQTR worksheets and transcribe the numbers onto a real SQTR and get your new CC to sign where necessary.....if (s)he will.

[arajca]

Works for a transfer, but what about cross-border assistance?

[floridacyclist]

Take your 101 card. We train our hams to do that....take all paperwork since they have no idea who you are and even if they are on IMU, if they're not online they might not be able to verify you...always take the paperwork even for an IMU mission.

I saw a large mission grind to a halt because IMU went down and nobody had any ICSF211s

Since Tallahassee is so close to the line, I specify GA, AL, and FL when downloading the database since we get so many visitors, especially for training.

[BlackKnight]

Okay, I may be dense, but I talked with my CC last night and got the okay to put in his CAPID for PSC Trainee status.  Plugged in the numbers, and pressed submit.  It said my tasks were submitted, but then, they were removed.  Where did they go?  Does he have to do anything?

We did pretty much the same thing, tried to update a bunch of the open SQTRs in my squadron after getting unit CC verbal approval.  Only problem is that the system bypassed our unit CC and kicked all those SQTR interim approvals straight up to Group command!  The group commander was a bit unnerved to receive automated emails for 30+ SQTR approvals!

I do think they have a "human-factors" problem with the programming of this new interim approval module.  As Tubacap correctly points out, when a member enters the interim approval date it is erased after the "submit" button is clicked. The date won't reappear in the SQTR worksheet until after commander approval is obtained. This quirk will probably cause quite a few multiple-submittals because members will naturally conclude their first few attempts were unsuccessful...

[floridacyclist]

How does one issue a mass verbal approval for that many SQTRs. How did you run the evaluation?

[Fifinella]

As an aside, it sounds as though a few folks here may not be aware they can get hard copy SQTRs  that *do* have a space for SQ/CC signature.  (Although they are less convenient than printing the ones in Ops Quals.)

For those who may not know:
From the Members page (cap.gov website), select the Operations link from the left side column
ON the Operations page, scroll down until you see Links to Operations Resources, below which is Training Materials

Three lines below that is: All SQTRs in PDF format
clicking that will put you here: https://ntc.cap.af.mil/es/sqtrs/sqtrs.cfm
These SQTRs all have signature lines.

[RiverAux]

haven't really seen many people use them lately since the personalized ones that automatically fill in your already approved tasks are so handy. 

[BlackKnight]

How does one issue a mass verbal approval for that many SQTRs. How did you run the evaluation?

You misunderstood.  These were already open SQTRs with the prerequisite and/or preparatory training already completed.  The interim approvals were already on our paper copies of the SQTRs but there was never a way to enter those interim approvals in MIMS.  Now there is. The MIMS entries are simply duplications of approvals that were previously granted.

[ammotrucker]

When I mentioned SETs approving signoffs claimed for them, I wasn't thinking so much about micromanaging as making it easier for those of us whose CC insists on verifying completion of tasks. His reasoning is that since there are no signatures on the SQTR, he wants to see something in writing or verbally from the SQTRs claimed. We have yet to test his policies as he is new and nobody has signed off on anything yet (actually, they have, but he wasn't officially the commmander yet, so I approved them having supervised their training and evaluation). The old commander wasn't any better......taking forever to approve stuff and asking me at one point how was he supposed to know what he was approving, but at least he did approve our folks after i assured him that i had been there and the signoffs were valid. One of my friends in Gp 3 is still fighting to get his SQTRs approved after a year  because the CC feels that his tasks were pencil-whipped.

Like I said, this wouldn't just be about fraud, although there are plenty of folks around who will claim stuff they haven't earned if they can get away with it (not that we haven't seen some of that lately on the board) and if they will claim Ranger status, you know they wouldn't feel any qualms about claiming they kept a log.


SETs would be much more diligent in approving folks if they realized that their online approval was much more binding than a signature-less piece of paper with some CAPIDs on it. Knowing that any future shortcomings of your trainees may very well come back to haunt you would make most folks try a little harder to ensure that the minimum level of training is met before clicking "approve"; repeated patterns of clueless trainess would result in revocation of SET privileges.

Why not ask for a system that the SET must enter each accomplishment

[RiverAux]

Okay, so there is a particular qualification in which I've met all the pre-requisites and the basic training requirements.  So, I wanted to get in line with this new requirement, and as I understood it, I just needed to enter in the "pending dates" in the 2 commander approval tasks and then they would be sent up for approval.  However, while the system has accepted those dates, nothing is showing up in any pending approvals folder and the qualification isn't showing up on my 101 card with a training * like it is supposed to.

What did I do wrong?

[BlackKnight]

...What did I do wrong?

Probably nothing.  Ask your unit CC if the approval request is showing up in his list.  When he approves it your 101 card will be updated and will show you as a supervised trainee in that task.  These "interim approvals" may not show up as "pending approvals" the same way that completed SQTRs do.