Major SQTR loophole fixed

[RiverAux]

According to an update on the e-services page they've finally fixed a major loophole/problem in the online SQTRs.  Basically, in the past if you had completed the pre-requisites & fam/prep sections  for any specialty you could print out an SQTR that would look like you were ready to do the mission as a trainee and it would shop up on your 101 as if you were a trainee.  As anyone who has seen an actual SQTR knows, you need the signature of your commander/designee for the completion of the pre-requisites and the fam/prep sections before you could serve as a trainee in that job. 

Now, they apparently have it set up so that when you finish each of those sections your commander/designee has to approve you to advance to the next level in that specialty. 

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone. 

Good progress. 

[_]

It looks like it just needs a CAP ID and date like a regular task not an actual approval by the commander his or her self through the system.  If that's the case it'd be easy to get around.

[SJFedor]

Nope, when you enter in the date, it goes to your commander for approval in MIMS. It won't show up with a * on your 101 card until they approve it in the system.

[floridacyclist]

It's about time! Of course, just today as part of our scanner class, I remarked about there being no place on the SQTR worksheet for a SQ CC's signature. It looks like now there is for all practical purposes.

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

[SarDragon]

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone.

Where does it say that? IIRC, that applied only to the olde 101 cards.

[JC004]

It is working...the last 101 card I printed off said I was in training for 4 specialties (of course no more than 3 are allowed) and now the one I just looked up had all of them gone.

Where does it say that? IIRC, that applied only to the olde 101 cards.

Agree.  The three rule died with the 101T cards.  I remember this coming up at my CTTT course at the Philadelphia National Board.

[IceNine]

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

That would be great but the regs say that the task must be approved by the unit CC or designee. 

[floridacyclist]

No, I mean each individual task....like if I put in MIMS that you evaluated and approved me on "C-4002 DEMONSTRATE ABILITY TO DEVELOP AND APPROVE AN INCIDENT ACTION PLAN (ICS FORMS 202-206 WITH ATTACHMENTS)" it would then pop up on your screen as something for you to approve under your approvals waiting.

By the time that the unit commander got in to approve me for "Agency Liaison", he would at least know that each individual task had been approved by the SET who had signed off. Sort of an electronic replacement for having to see the completed SQTR and much more secure since the paper version only requires a CAPID and date, not a signature.

The System could also verify that the person you claimed signed off on your task was eligible to before even allowing you to save it.

One of the problems that I do have with the current system is that if even if the CC does ask for an SQTR and you produce one..if he looks up the person that you claim signed off on an individual task and calls him, he may or may not remember what and who he signed off on at "The Mother of ALL ES Bivouacs" a year and a half ago.

By making it pop up on the SET's screen as soon as you input it, at least he can verify it while he still remembers. If the SET doesn't do computers or is downright lazy and I can verify in other ways to the CC that the tasks were signed off (back to original paperwork or a 112 or the like) then the CC can override the lack of SET verification and approve me anyway.

[Eclipse]

If the SET doesn't do computers...

I'm sorry, but you can't be considered an asset in this organization anymore if you don't "do computers".

A harsh reality for those who aren't interested in getting up to speed, but these are the times in which we live.

[floridacyclist]

Harsh reality or not, if I'm sitting there waiting for a specialty to be approved and the SET doesn't do computers, has blown up his computer, or may no longer even be a member, I would want there to be some sort of fallback mechanism where the Sq CC can approve me without the SET's electronic agreement.

Whether the SET is considered an asset or not does not matter to a 14yo C/Sgt waiting for GTM approval.

[arajca]

Now if they can just make each achievement so it can be approved by the individual SET who supposedly signed it off.....

There come a time when you needs to trust that the members are doing the right thing. Micro-management is a bad thing. And why, as a SET, should I have to approve the same thing twice? Consider that on a training mission or class, you could have 10 or 15 people completing tasks and getting signed off on their SQTR's. Then each member enters the completion of each of the 7 tasks they were signed off on in E-services. You think the SET should spend a couple hours approving 70 to 105 tasks that they already signed off on? For each poser who games the system, there are 100's who use it correctly. Adding that kind of a burden would make me de-certify myself as SET. I just don't have the time.

[RiverAux]

Good point. 

The current change closed a loophole in which someone, with good intentions, could accidentally get themselves in trouble by training for something without their commander's permission. 

Requiring SETs to online validate tasks would really be more of a fraud prevention check.  Frankly, I've never heard of anyone trying to "forge" CAP IDs and dates on their SQTR though I imagine it probably has happened.  The question is whether or not it is a big enough problem to make it worth the time of SETs to fix.  I think not.  I'm fairly confident that such fraud would be caught fairly quickly if attempted as things are now.

[floridacyclist]

If an SET evaluated and approved 70 to 105 tasks in a session, unless that evaluation session lasted all day, I would say that there was some major pencil-whipping going on. It takes longer than a couple of minutes per task to go through each of the P/F questions at the end of the task. Besides, most testing sessions have more than one SET available for signing off....especially if you have 10-15 students being tested. Even so, it wouldn't be that difficult for an SET to open his E-services, look at the list of waiting approvals to make sure he recognizes them all and perhaps compare them to his records from that day, hit select all then approve.

This is not just about trust, it is also about members not being totally sure what constitutes a proper sign-off. I have had members put down a CAPID and date because they did something in front of somebody (with or without that person's cognizance) that in their mind meant demonstrating competence on that task regardless of the stated procedure for evaluating a task (ie the P/F questions at the end of each task).

Besides, if we are simply supposed to trust our people, then why bother even having the CC sign off? Just take the member's word that he knows what he is talking about.

[RiverAux]

Remember that many, many of the tasks can be done by written quizes which could be done in a classroom with 20+ people in it.

Besides, if we are simply supposed to trust our people, then why bother even having the CC sign off? Just take the member's word that he knows what he is talking about.

Because the regulation says not that they should. 

[floridacyclist]

Remember that many, many of the tasks can be done by written quizes which could be done in a classroom with 20+ people in it.

In which case you can just hit select all and approve. No fuss, no muss. It takes a lot less time to verify your approval online than it did to evaluate or sign off in the first place.

[davedove]

The current change closed a loophole in which someone, with good intentions, could accidentally get themselves in trouble by training for something without their commander's permission. 

I agree with this, and I do believe the change is a good idea.  It also cleans up my 101 quite a bit.  The downside is that those of us currently training in a specialty have had our trainee status drop off and it will have to be re-entered.

[Galahad]

A couple of questions that I couldn't find answers to in the e-services news blurb:

(1) For new training, can you still mix and match SQTR task entries for both preparatory and advanced training?  Much of our training is inter-related:  For example, GTM3/GTM2/GTM1/UDF, and MS/MO.  We teach both the preparatory and advanced stuff in the same day or weekend.  Will the new logic block SQTR task entries in the advanced block until the preparatory block is completed and approved?   Will MIMS still "cross-populate" identical tasks across SQTRs even if those SQTRs have not been "opened" by the unit commander for said member?

(2) I know several unit commanders who can barely log themselves into e-services, let alone keep up with ES approvals.  This is going to drive them batty.  Previously the unit ES officer (by duty position) could approve a completed SQTR at unit level.  Does that capability still exist, and has it been extended to these new approval steps?

[Matt]

Just to be the stick in the mud I am... seems as though WMU took care of this before it started...

You find the respective input listing, provided you're currently assigned as an evaluator (not just SET) you may enter taskings accordingly.  Plus, your CC must approve each stage of training, i.e. Prereq, Prep, Adv, then Wing approves them.

[ZigZag911]

Without getting into the pros & cons of micro-management, closing this gap in the SQTR process is a good thing in terms of ensuring proper training and quality control.

[arajca]

Just to be the stick in the mud I am... seems as though WMU took care of this before it started...

You find the respective input listing, provided you're currently assigned as an evaluator (not just SET) you may enter taskings accordingly.  Plus, your CC must approve each stage of training, i.e. Prereq, Prep, Adv, then Wing approves them.

Two points:
Not everyone uses WMU.
WMU does feed into MIMS.