does anyone use helicopters for their SARs

[lycan1138]

I'm just wondering it would seem very practical.

[SABRE17]

quite the opposite

hundreds of dollars to operate per hour

additional flight qualifications needed

thousands of dollars in maintenance per month


not crunching the #'s, one flight hour in a helo would equal probably 5 or 7 in a C-182
Perfect if some one needs to repel into a ravine and rescue an injured hiker, but that's what the sheriffs department or USAF rescue is for.


flat and simple CAP doesn't have the $ to operate them or to train people how to fly SAR in them.

[davidsinn]

quite the opposite

hundreds of dollars to operate per hour

additional flight qualifications needed

thousands of dollars in maintenance per month


not crunching the #'s, one flight hour in a helo would equal probably 5 or 7 in a C-182
Perfect if some one needs to repel into a ravine and rescue an injured hiker, but that's what the sheriffs department or USAF rescue is for.


flat and simple CAP doesn't have the $ to operate them or to train people how to fly SAR in them.

I don't know about that. I heard recently that some of the new Eurocopters have numbers that are competitive with our 182s if you take out the pilot pay.

[Eclipse]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

[RiverAux]

I think he may have been assuming that if there were choppers that cost roughly the same as a 182 that we might get them and use volunteer pilots to fly them.

[davidsinn]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

If the pilot is a cop or otherwise on call, pay is irrelevant because they get paid weather they fly or not. This usually comes down to a fruit argument in the end.

[SABRE17]

It's dreamy thinking because our volunteer pilots would need a helicopter certification. there is ONE member in my unit with such a Qual, and He's a UH-60 Pilot.

And then there's the liability of using it as you intend, yes its every cadets dream to repel out of a chopper, rescue two people and fly out a hero. truth is, even the Troopers in the TAXachusetts state police wont do it. And they seem to have one of everything in this state.

I just think we need to leave something that risky and technical to the pro's.

[davidsinn]

It's dreamy thinking because our volunteer pilots would need a helicopter certification. there is ONE member in my unit with such a Qual, and He's a UH-60 Pilot.

And then there's the liability of using it as you intend, yes its every cadets dream to repel out of a chopper, rescue two people and fly out a hero. truth is, even the Troopers in the TAXachusetts state police wont do it. And they seem to have one of everything in this state.

I just think we need to leave something that risky and technical to the pro's.

There is more to rotary wing SAR then actually pulling off the rescue. It's really hard to see debris at 80kts and 1k ft agl. A helo could do it at 40kts and 200 ft. Or even lower and slower.

Let's look at the Airvans for a comparison. We have 16 of them and they burn north of 14 gal/hr of 100LL. That's expensive. Granted you can easily lift 3 scanners, an MO and the pilot and still loiter for five or six hours(the seats suck more than a Hoover and it's lacking in the technology department but it's a heck of an aircraft). If the numbers I heard for ECs are accurate we could probably justify two per region as a supplemental tool in the bag provided we could recruit some rotor pilots.

[Eclipse]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

If the pilot is a cop or otherwise on call, pay is irrelevant because they get paid weather they fly or not. This usually comes down to a fruit argument in the end.

That's not how it works - first, someone is paying for it, nothing is free.  In a whole lot of cases that is you and me in the form of FEMA, insurance, or similar charge-backs and charge-throughs, and more and more agencies are scrapping or reducing their aviation departments because of the high cost.

Every cop sitting in a cockpit is one less on the street, and these days that is a real consideration.

[Hawk200]

I don't know about that. I heard recently that some of the new Eurocopters have numbers that are competitive with our 182s if you take out the pilot pay.

Pilot pay is not really the factor needed to be concerned about. Helicopters have inspection requirements well over and above a fixed wing aircraft. On military copters, there are inspections done every ten hours of flight time. Then, there's an inspection at 40 hours, another at 120, again at 360, and at 720. I'd have to do some research as to required time periods for civilian rotor wing, but I'd easily bet a dollar or two that there is a lot more than just an annual on civilian helicopters. Operating costs include fuel and maintenance.

Each inspection is probably going to find something requiring replacement. And the cost of those replacements is a lot higher than fixed wing components. A type of component for a fixed wing might be high quality, but would not even be remotely considered durable enough for use on a helicopter.

Helicopters do not operate on the same cost as fixed wing. That is unfortunately a recurring fallacy in general aviation. I've known people that wonder why it costs them so much to fly on Delta because that other little plane (a 182, for example) only burns a dozen or so gallons per hour. Not everything flys at the same cost. Helicopters may have some versatility in some applications, but they aren't the same.

I know one helicopter pilot instructor that regularly says, "If you haven't flown a helicopter today, you're not current." Maintaining currency is an issue, too. Granted, daily currency isn't a reasonable goal financially, but you'd have to fly pretty regularly to stay proficient. That's a higher cost as well, even if your pilot is a volunteer. Doubt there's any rotor pilots out there willing to "volunteer" to fly when they have to spend money on their own time to maintain currency to fly a corporate bird.

Helicopters are cool, no disagreement, but there is a price to the "cool."

[Al Sayre]

Any IC should know who to call if a helo is needed, but for all the reasons given above (& primarily cost) it's mainly a back up tool that you use after you have a reason for it, (Plane spotted something that needs to be looked at closer, but GT can't get to it for hours etc) not a primary asset.

[ol'fido]

I have on two occasions flown on state DOT choppers in the course of a mission. Once was on a SARCAP. I flew with the DOT pilot and the GLLR commander at the time, Col. Bruce Ware. The second time was on a REDCAP near Pinckneyville, IL in the late 90's. Usually, the DOT pilots have been more than willing to work with CAP here in IL.

[Hawk200]

Any IC should know who to call if a helo is needed, but for all the reasons given above (& primarily cost) it's mainly a back up tool that you use after you have a reason for it, (Plane spotted something that needs to be looked at closer, but GT can't get to it for hours etc) not a primary asset.

Back when I was in Alaska (late '90's), CAP would do the majority of the searches, and if a breathing body was found, the 210th out of Kulis would make the pickup. Worked pretty well. Not sure if they're still doing that, but it had to have been pretty effective.

As a mechanic, I can appreciate a bird only being out an hour or two, instead of five or six. More time between inspections is always nice.

[Ed Bos]

Back when I was in Alaska (late '90's), CAP would do the majority of the searches, and if a breathing body was found, the 210th out of Kulis would make the pickup. Worked pretty well. Not sure if they're still doing that, but it had to have been pretty effective.

As a mechanic, I can appreciate a bird only being out an hour or two, instead of five or six. More time between inspections is always nice.

As a member of the 210th, and CAP, I can say that the 11th RCC does a great job of marrying resources to the mission at hand, and using the right tool in their kit. CAP and the Guard cooperate together regularly.

Helicopters have their place in SAR, but it's certainly interesting to see the differing opinions in this thread.

[lycan1138]

say someone has a private helicopter the they wont mind loaning for sars i live near a resort town with a lot of rich people and it is the Ozarks region we are in with ridges everywhere which make it hard to navigate if your not used to it

[AngelWings]

 Helicopters would be impractical for us. You can find someone with a cessna or airvan just fine. It is alot less expensive in general for the owner. We can't do FRIES. If someone was hurt, and the pilot went just a little too low and started to kick up everything on the ground, there is a chance the helo would hurt the person/s we are searching for. Really, the only thing I personally could think of that we could use a helicopter, well I should say 2 things, is delivering small palletes of food and water to people during a crisis (like Hurricane Katrina), or for damage observation missions.

[lycan1138]

I'm just saying in places like i live its to steep to climb effectively and it would  be faster to insert teams like this because it would take minutes in a copter that would take hours normally

[jeders]

I'm just saying in places like i live its to steep to climb effectively and it would  be faster to insert teams like this because it would take minutes in a copter that would take hours normally

That's why, when we need to, we call on others who have the training to do these things safely. We don't/won't/can't do these things as CAP.

[EmergencyManager6]

Most REDCAP missions i have IC'd we have called in the local Sheriff's helo.  it is a FACT that helicopters are a much better platform for SAR than a Cessna.  Most sheriff dept in FL also have FLIR and a search light.  our Cessna cant match that.  Oh yah, they can hover too!

I used to get a lot of crap from the membership for calling the sheriff helo out on a SAR, but the fact is that they can be airborne and over the target before our crew gets to the airport.  Many finds / saves have happened under my watch because we launched the sheriff before our own Cessnas!

[blackrain]

I saw a price of 40k at a school in Florida to get a commercial helo license from zero hours. The same place offered a 20k price for a commercial add on to someone that already had a fixed-wing license. I think they use a Robinson at a $300/hr rate or something like that.