>>> Starching BDUs <<<

Started by 356cadet, July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM

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Stonewall

As a cadet back in the day, wearing green fatigues, I used starch because that's what I was told to do.  

In the Army I kept 4 sets of BDUs starched in my wall locker to look perfect for an inspection.

I never wore starched BDUs, ever.  I would iron them with steam and water (used a spray bottle) only.  

As an Air Force NCO, I did the same thing as I did in the Army with BDUs.  With ABUs, I wash and wear.

I have better things to do than spend 30 minutes starching my BDUs and I certainly have better things to do with my money than paying someone to clean, press and starch my BDU/ABUS.

When I was on active duty in the Army in the early and mid 90s, there was a huge sign at the base cleaners that said "STARCHING OF BDUs IS UNAUTHORIZED".  Unfortunately, as Mikey said, some directives may have come out since then.  But as far as I know, no regulation and no command has every told me that I have to starch my BDUs.

The tag in the BDUs that says "DO NOT USE BLEACH OR STARCH" is on there for a purpose, because those chemicals have shown to cause wear and tear of the material, whether any of us notice it  or not.  I tend to go with the manufacturer's guidance and generally not go wrong.

Serving since 1987.

Smithsonia

There is work to do. Thirty minutes a day times 1.5-1.75 million in uniform times 365 days a year is a lot of time spent. Better that there be 30 minute more a day to exercise, or work on training, have family time, or a bit of peace and solitude. I used to polish my brass, spit-shine my boots, starch and iron my BDUs. I liked the solitude and peace. The habit is a little hard to break. I am not forlorn or sad about the change... just not quite used to it, I suppose.

When we get the "predator-movie invisibility uniform," I'll have trouble with that too. One officer appearing to be alone walking in a straight line an squinting -- looking for a soldier whom may or may nt be in front of him -- will be difficult and not that much fun to watch. I'm probably a little old to make that transformation. In the meantime -- I'll still polish and press my uni. They'll take me away one day as a crazy old man. BUT, as I said, I like the solitude and peace. SO "spit and polish uniform prison" will likely be OK for me, at least.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

mikeylikey

Quote from: capchiro on July 12, 2008, 09:44:33 PM
At a recent Wing Encampment, the directive was that if it was hot out and the sun was out and the cadets were out in the sun, they would have the sleeves rolled down to protect against sunburn.  Considering that starch increases the internal heat inside the uniform, I would sincerely advise against it and would be careful of cadets, etal, regarding heat stroke in such situations.

argh....no, no, no!!

It is a fairytale misconception that unrolled sleeves makes you hotter in the BDU's.  Even with starch, which would actually help keep you cooler, as the air trapped between your skin and the uniform would be cooler due to your perspiration not being able to escape as quickly.  Heatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration. 

The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.

Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??   
What's up monkeys?

IceNine

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 11:24:17 PM
Quote from: capchiro on July 12, 2008, 09:44:33 PM
At a recent Wing Encampment, the directive was that if it was hot out and the sun was out and the cadets were out in the sun, they would have the sleeves rolled down to protect against sunburn.  Considering that starch increases the internal heat inside the uniform, I would sincerely advise against it and would be careful of cadets, etal, regarding heat stroke in such situations.

argh....no, no, no!!

It is a fairytale misconception that unrolled sleeves makes you hotter in the BDU's.  Even with starch, which would actually help keep you cooler, as the air trapped between your skin and the uniform would be cooler due to your perspiration not being able to escape as quickly.  Heatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration. 

The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.

Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??   

WHAT!?!?  That is the exact opposite of being able to stay cool.  Evaporation of perspiration is what keeps you cool, that is the point of perspiring.

He didn't say that they were down to stay cool he said they were down to combat the sun, which in itself is a valid point as sunburns can inhibit the ability to sweat.

However a few decades ago there was this AMAZING invention called sunscreen that amazingly works a lot like sleeves down at protecting against the sun.

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

shorning

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 11:24:17 PM
Anyone know what the AF stance is on rolling ABU sleeves now??   

It is permitted.

Eclipse

#25
Quote from: IceNine on July 12, 2008, 11:29:00 PMHeatstroke is caused by less fluid intake and the bodies inability to naturally cool itself due to less perspiration and dehydration. 

The further the temperature rises = more intake of fluids, and adjustment of work/rest behavior.

Um, no. Dehydration is caused by inadequate fluid intake.

Heatstroke Hyperthermia is caused by a body producing or absorbing more heat than it can dissipate.

As to the starch question - I realized how short my life was when I tried to get the energy to argue for the 18th time about whether BDU's should / are allowed to be starched.

This discussion is nonsense in CAP.  We do not wear our uniforms in the same manner or for the same duration as active services, so any wear issues are not applicable (most members wear their uniforms a few hours a month, not 24x7 in a harsh environment. Our most strenuous "deployments" rarely last more than a few days, and are not near as harsh as a combat environment).   Your average encampment, NESA, HMRS, etc., does not equal BMT, SERE training, or the sandbox, despite what you have heard, and even if they did, they only last a week or two and then the clothes get to "cool off".

For me, my BDU's always go to the cleaners, are always starched stiff, and I believe they have held up better, repel water better, and whether they exhibit an increased fluorescence in UV or IR is barely anecdotally interesting, let alone a matter of concern.

80% of the wear of my uniforms is in a meeting environment and they are worn for presentation effect not utility, and I'm pretty active in ES. I'd wager most members are 90+%, and some never see anything but the VFW and the car.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nathan

#26
Quote from: IceNine on July 12, 2008, 11:29:00 PM
WHAT!?!?  That is the exact opposite of being able to stay cool.  Evaporation of perspiration is what keeps you cool, that is the point of perspiring.

True dat...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweating

As far as I can guess from the bit of thermochemistry I know, heat is taken from your body and absorbed by the sweat in order to cause evaporation. When the vapor can escape, it takes the heat (as stored energy in the molecules now) away from you, and when that heat isn't on you, you obviously become cooler. For chemistry nerds, I would guess that while your body is giving off heat (-change in enthalpy, exothermic), the sweat absorbs heat (+change in enthalpy, endothermic). Therefore, the overall energy stored as heat dissapates from the body.

When you trap your sweat on your skin, however, the vapor has nowhere to go. So instead of carrying the heat away from your body, the sweat may turn vaporous briefly before storing itself on your skin again, and due to the law of conservation of energy, the heat doesn't really go anywhere at all. Instead, the heat just continuously builds up. That's why we don't wear jackets in the summertime, and you tend to get AS MUCH CLOTHING AS POSSIBLE off of someone who's suffering from heat-related injuries.

The only safety-related arguments which have much merit for keeping sleeves down is to protect against sunburn, but we do have sunscreen, and to be honest, it'd have to be a pretty nasty case of sunburn for me to wish I had risked heatstroke. The other main argument is to keep the bugs and branches off in the woods, but again, unless there are some particularly bad bugs or thorny branches, I'd rather lower my risk of heat related injuries.

Then again, I've been through a pretty bad heat injury myself, so maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue. ;)
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Stonewall

If you're spending the same amount of time, or more, preparing to wear your BDUs as you do your blues (any variation), then perhaps you're going some place where wearing your blues is more appropriate.  Regardless of what you think the purpose is for having BDUs (a utility uniform) in CAP, they are not a parade uniform, nor are they an administrative office uniform.

No one, even in the military, really even cares about the IR/UV or whatever it is coating stuff.  It's just not practical to prepare your utility uniform for show.  

BDUs in CAP are no different than BDUs in the military.  No, we're not wearing them to combat, nor are the troops when they're not deployed or in the field, but no one is demanding or expecting them to starch their uniforms.  Some pogues who don't spend their days outside working in manual labor, may enjoy making their ABU/BDUs parade worthy, but those guys are just that, pogues.

The best thing about ABUs and ACUs as well as the Marine Corps cammies, are that they have gotten away from wasting time shining boots, pressing and starching uniforms that are made to get dirty.  And by dirty, I'm not just talking in combat, but on the flight line, in the life support shop or on patrol duty as a security policeman.
Serving since 1987.

MIKE

Quote from: CAPM 39-12-1. c. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or
inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.

Translation:  You can take your can of spray starch and your Leather Luster and shove it up your [Fourth Point of Contact].  >:D
Mike Johnston

CadetProgramGuy

I realize that I am new here.....but can someone tell me how we went from this......

Quote from: 356cadet on July 12, 2008, 06:48:25 PM
Here's the scoop:

While randomly looking through military uniform regulations, I came across this one:

Quote from: Army Regulation 670-1
   Soldiers will not starch the Army Combat Uniform or Battle Dress Uniform under any circumstances. The use of starch, sizing, and any process that involves dry-cleaning or a steam press will adversely affect the treatments and durability of the uniform and is not authorized.
   Wash in cold water and mild detergent containing no optical brighteners or bleach. Tumble dry at low heat (not to exceed 130 degrees Farenheit). Remove immediately from the dryer and fold flat or place on a rustproof hanger to ensure heat from the dryer does not set wrinkles. To drip dry, remove from the washer/water and place on a rustproof hanger. Do not wring or twist.

As I looked up the reason for this, it's due to starch enclosing the little holes in the uniform, therefore trapping body heat inside the uniform. This causes the enemy to be able to see our men through night vision thermal and UV sensors.

Now I know this is the Army, and I know this doesn't apply to us. However, I'm pretty sure that the Air Force regs mention this somewhere, and since we are the Air Force Auxiliary, we follow some, if not all, of the regs of the Air Force. I'm also aware that we aren't involved in enemy combat situations, but that shouldn't really matter.

Aside from all this, starch does make the uniform nice and smooth... but it also makes it shiny.

So, what I'm asking you is: should we starch our BDUs? I'm neither attacking or defending starching. I'm stuck in the middle from here. What do you think?

Message icon - MIKE

to this....?

Quote from: MIKE on July 13, 2008, 01:04:20 AM
Quote from: CAPM 39-12-1. c. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or
inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.

Translation:  You can take your can of spray starch and your Leather Luster and shove it up your [Fourth Point of Contact].  >:D


RiverAux

Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift?  :clap:

Major Carrales

Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift?  :clap:

Well, fancy that!!!
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

CadetProgramGuy

Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift?  :clap:

Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).

CadetProgramGuy

Oh and I did laugh out loud abotu the 4th pt of contact..... at work, my boss is eyeing me from across the room...

Tubacap

^Probably not wise to educate him/her on the fourth point of contact.  This is a very interesting topic though, and since I just bought a new set of BDUs, it's decision time...

To starch or not to starch, that is the question!
William Schlosser, Major CAP
NER-PA-001

MIKE

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 13, 2008, 04:32:37 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift?  :clap:

Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).

In other words... I brought us back on course.
Mike Johnston

356cadet

Quote from: MIKE on July 13, 2008, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 13, 2008, 04:32:37 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 13, 2008, 04:22:27 AM
Did you just catch our main man participating in, nay, almost instigating, thread drift?  :clap:

Actually I was reading in amusement over how we got from Starching BDU's (heavy, full strength, they CAN stand on their own, thank you very much) to debates on sweating (sleeves down may seem hotter, but it does keep you cooler, sleeves up evaporates sweat from your body, causing you to sweat more, draining the life giving water from your feble body).

In other words... I brought us back on course.

Thanks MIKE  ;D

jb512

So to sum it up...

If you super starch your BDUs you'll look good.
If you iron your BDUs you'll look pretty good.
If you take your BDUs out right after they're dry, you'll look ok.
If you leave your BDUs in the basket for a while you'll need improvement.
If you sleep in you BDUs you'll look like crap.

Dynamite

My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?

jb512

Quote from: Dynamite on July 16, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
My room mate at encampment starched the crud out of her BDUs. I just hung mine up and spent that extra time cleaning and studying. Uniform inspection came around and we both passed just fine. it's a utility uniform, not a dress uniform! I'd NEVER starch my jeans, why starch the BDUs?

Sometimes it's not just about passing.