"Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?

Started by tribalelder, September 07, 2007, 01:26:35 PM

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tribalelder

Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?
WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

O-Rex

If it's that serious, the Commander might consider Membership Termination or nonrenewal.

Skyray

Discipline a volunteer, especially if it seems the least bit capricious, and you are likely going to be short one volunteer.  I worked long and hard to get one Spaatzen back in the program after he had been busted, and it was futile, even though we promoted him back to his old rank before his membership expired.  He let it lapse when it did expire, and he has never come back.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

ddelaney103

Quote from: tribalelder on September 07, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

Do you mean a self-requested demotion, such as moving to NCO from officer?  It's possible, if unusual - it would probably require approval from higher ups.

Pylon

Quote from: tribalelder on September 07, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

If you're speaking of cadets, CAPR 52-16 provides for only for the demotion of up to 2 earned grades.  It's pretty clear cut, there is no provision allowing CAP to exceed that, regardless of who requests it.  Cadets are required to wear their earned grade, as well, so I don't see any way out of it.  I don't understand any reason why someone would self-request a demotion anyways - it's pretty dramatic, if you ask me.

If a cadet has done something to warrant more than 2 grades worth of demotion in the commander's viewpoint, they should move up the scale of progessive discipline and consider temporary membership suspension or membership termination, along with a written LOR.


If you're speaking of senior members, there is no limit to the grade to which a SM will be demoted.  A Lt Col could be demoted to SM. Simply check the grade they are to be demoted to on the CAPF 2 (in the Demotion section), and state the justification in the remarks block. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Skyray

Quote from: ddelaney103 on September 07, 2007, 02:15:39 PM
Quote from: tribalelder on September 07, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

Do you mean a self-requested demotion, such as moving to NCO from officer?  It's possible, if unusual - it would probably require approval from higher ups.

It has been a long time, and I don't totally remember the circumstances, but TP reduced a LtCol one grade for supporting my right to free speech, and the LtCol's response was a request to be reduced to SMWOG.  This request was granted, at least for the time he had remaining in CAP.  He is another one who didn't renew.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

Eclipse

member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?

"That Others May Zoom"

Skyray

Quote from: Eclipse on September 07, 2007, 03:11:01 PM
member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?

It's not real clear what post you are questioning, Eclipse.  If it be mine, yes, member initiated.  It was a he, he was Florida Senior Member of the Year in 1994 (I think) and he dropped out of CAP and joined the American Cadet Alliance as a mentor to the Young Marines.  A real loss to CAP in my opinion.  It took place during TP's first tour as Wing Commander, when he, like Nixon, was working through his "enemies" list.  It's not like Bowling didn't have enough warning how little character TP had when he reappointed him Wing Commander a couple of years later.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

MIKE

Mike Johnston

pixelwonk

mmmkay... back on topic.

I can't provide a cite for the reg hounds, but I have asked Susie Parker about this myself. (after not getting an answer from the KB) 

Quote
Customer (Tedd A.) - 01/08/2007 10:44 AM Can a current CAP Field Grade officer willingly renounce their officer grade and become a SM without grade?
If so, how is it done and what would they be called, since the term "Senior Member" is not supposed to be used?


Tedd,
It is extremely unusually [sic] for a CAP senior member to denounce their grade but it certainly can be done.  Technically is a demotion (just not one for disciplinary reasons) and would be done on a CAP Form 2, with a note in the remarks section that the member voluntarily relinquishes the grade.

While the term "senior member" is no longer used in presentations outside of CAP, this is still the title of our adult membership category and the individual would still be referred to as a senior member.

If I can assist in any other way please let me know.


SUSAN P. PARKER
Deputy Director, Membership Services


While Ms. Parker doesn't seem to fully understand the difference between "renounce" and "denounce," I am living proof that this can be done, although I did not choose such a drastic self-demotion.  Maj to 1st Lt.
A Lieutenant Major, if you will.  :D


Major Carrales

#10
Quote from: Skyray on September 07, 2007, 01:55:11 PM
Discipline a volunteer, especially if it seems the least bit capricious, and you are likely going to be short one volunteer.  I worked long and hard to get one Spaatzen back in the program after he had been busted, and it was futile, even though we promoted him back to his old rank before his membership expired.  He let it lapse when it did expire, and he has never come back.

Well, if a person is passionate about their service in CAP and came into it with the attitude that this is their place to "take ownership," and then after some term of service they "scew up" (hey, it happens)...then a truly honorable person who actually believes in the core values would take the grade reduction as a "fess up" and continue on.

Such a person might experience some "disgrace," at least in their own mind and heart, however, in theory their continued service at a higher level (as in intensity) would counter those feelings.

What say you?
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Skyray

QuoteWhat say you?

I promised Mike that I would quit beating on this horse.

What you say is true.  The problem is that there are many places to donate time and money, and only a few of us believe that CAP is worth climbing over less than effective leadership.  I happen to be one of them.  So without expanding further on my experiences in the past, my caveat to the leadership is to be very careful how, and for what, you discipline.  Be aware that no matter how lenient the discipline, it may well be an effective termination, depending on the motivation of the disciplinee.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

ZigZag911

Quote from: Eclipse on September 07, 2007, 03:11:01 PM
member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?

I know at least 1 case where a major (at the time) was very disgusted with the quality of officer being promoted to maj & lt col.....so this officer requested demotion to SMWOG, and continues to serve CAP very  actively in that status to this day!

Trung Si Ma

After completing AWC, I went from LtCol to MSgt, but it sure took a while to convince my chain of command.

We did a CAPF2 and in the remarks block put a statement about there not being an NCO program when I became a senior and that I wanted to honor my heritage.  I then signed the statement in the remarks section so that NHQ would know that I was requesting the action.  I now have a nice shiny ID card that says MSgt.
Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

Dragoon

In the senior program, demotions are basically asking the guy to leave.  Because very few will stick around after that kind of public smack down.  That said, demotions are slightly easier than 2B, so it's not a bad way to get rid of a true screw-up.

In the cadet program, demotion can work if used properly.  As a squadron commander I used it once on two guys.  Once quit, one earned it back and became a decent troop.  The major effect was on the other cadets - I think it actually helped over all discipline to see their were consequences for poor behavior.

SAR-EMT1

While I could understand a volluntary RIG from an officer to an NCO spot. But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just dont get it.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

mikeylikey

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on September 14, 2007, 07:29:50 PM
While I could understand a volluntary RIG from an officer to an NCO spot. But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just don't get it.

If I read all the Iowa stuff that came across on this board, the staff positions in that Wing are based on rank.  So if you are a CAPT and have a SQD, and they offer to promote you to Major but you have to go to group as a staff Officer, would that be an example of not promoting to keep the job, or even getting promoted, but asking for a demotion to keep the SQD CC job??  Iowa folks help me out a bit.........

What's up monkeys?

pixelwonk

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on September 14, 2007, 07:29:50 PM
... But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just dont get it.
I love answering this question.
Short answer: I'd rather be proud of wearing Capt bars because I was commanding a great unit, instead of being proud that I went to a weekend school and I took a correspondence course.

Not-as-short answer: Personally, I do not feel that the current grade structure means much,  Not even for duty performance promotions. I wouldn't cry if it went away entirely, but we know that won't happen unless USAF dramatically changes the way we do things.

Recognizing that, I believe CAP would be better off by rewarding higher grade to those who were assuming higher levels of leadership. We are already doing it with promotions for Squadron Commanders (Capt) or Group Commanders (Maj).   I've heard the responses such as "But I don't see CAP grade structure as being broken" [one opinion out of many] or "Higher grade is the only pay these volunteers get" [bogus].  I've seen enough choads get promoted because they pencil whipped the right forms in other areas.  Not wanting to feel like a hypocrite, I started with myself, trading in my gold oak leaves for 1st Lt bars.
 
Once I take command of a unit, I'll be glad to have my wife pin on Capt. bars.  Maybe some day I'll wear bottlecaps again too.


mikeylikey

^  I don't get the reasoning for demoting yourself.  I am just stupid for not being able to follow along.  Sorry tedda
What's up monkeys?

pixelwonk

I don't blame anybody for not understanding.  It's not like this is commonplace, and I may just not be expressing my intentions clearly.  If you knew me personally, or if we were having a face to face conversation, things would possibly be different.

I certainly didn't have to demote myself.  I simply could have stayed a Major and took the command billets when they came.  Actions speak louder than words, eh? So in part, my decision to demote may have been to get people talking.  After all, you now know of a person who has done it, and you have an idea why, don't you?

I admit, sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, since I don't always wish to explain how I didn't do anything wrong to get silver bars again.  What brings me back though, is my "short answer" ^above

In the end, it all boils down to a personal choice, and the willingness to see it through.

SAR-EMT1

Well, in a convoulted way it does make sense. You werent in a Command position so you had no need for oak leaves.

However... one could say that as you are Wing Staff, (Webmaster) that you might just rate railroad tracks.

Ive technically got Level II done, but Id feel kinda odd being a twenty two year old Captain. As it is I intend to stay a 1st Lt. until Im twenty four or twenty six. (My unit /CC has stated that the moment I accept the COP hes giving me railroad tracks)

I guess the other reason I do it this way is to pace myself. Sure, I could be a Lt. Col by the time Im 30, but then what would I do for the other 30-40 years of my CAP membership?

The only thing Im sure of is this. I will, one day, be a Wing Commander.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Grumpy

"The only thing Im sure of is this. I will, one day, be a Wing Commander. "

That's cool.  You into being a politician?

RiverAux

I guess I'm just not understanding it either.  If you've done the things required by CAP to have the rank, there is nothing illegitimate in accepting it or wearing it.  If you're in the group that believes that all CAP rank is illegitimate you're being just as much of a hypocrite if you're wearing 2nd Lt bars as if you were wearing Lt. Col.  The only "honest" rank for them is senior member without grade and the only "honest" uniform would be the golf shirt and/or the blazer. 

MIKE

A Lt Col with 2d Lt level responsibilities is kind of dumb though... and he or she still has to take orders from his or her 1st Lt or Capt unit CC.
Mike Johnston

SoCalCAPOfficer

The only legitimate reason I could see for a person demoting themselves is if they are the Squadron, Group, Wing or National Commander and they know they have done something that deserves a demotion.   In that case demoting yourself as you would any other member shows that you are a fair leader.  However, for the life of me I cant see any other reason as legitimate for demoting ones self.   I also do not understand the hang up some people have about rank in general.  Are they ashamed that they look like military wannabes?
If so they should work for an organization that is not paramilitary.
Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
Commander
Hemet Ryan Sq 59  PCR-CA-458

pixelwonk

Quote from: RiverAux on September 15, 2007, 04:21:19 PM
I guess I'm just not understanding it either.  If you've done the things required by CAP to have the rank, there is nothing illegitimate in accepting it or wearing it.  If you're in the group that believes that all CAP rank is illegitimate you're being just as much of a hypocrite if you're wearing 2nd Lt bars as if you were wearing Lt. Col.  The only "honest" rank for them is senior member without grade and the only "honest" uniform would be the golf shirt and/or the blazer. 

That comment seemed a little barbed... or am I misunderstanding your tone?

Where did I claim that grade was illegitimate?  Those were your words, not mine.
I said to me, it doesn't mean much.  I believe there is a concrete difference there.

I stand behind the concept that grade be tied closer to position.  I'd expect that as an Auxie, you'd understand that better than most.

SoCalCAPOfficer, The legitimacy you speak of is more like opinion.  Are you implying that because I posted my opinion in this thread that I'm hung up on grade?  You surely can't mean that, for you'd be lumping yourself in the same category.

Grumpy

Tedda, I can certainly agree with your comment, "I stand behind the concept that grade be tied closer to position.".

When I retired from the AF (Reserve) and came back into CAP, it blew my mind (what little there is of it) that you would have a 1st Lt or Capt as a squadron commander and a Major or Lt Col as his deputy.



RiverAux

tedda, I wasn't talking about you in particular, but about the concept of self-initiated demotions in general.

SoCalCAPOfficer

What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?
Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
Commander
Hemet Ryan Sq 59  PCR-CA-458

Eclipse

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on September 15, 2007, 10:40:48 PM
What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

Too much time...too much bandwidth...MySpace updated...lonelygirl15 doesn't post anymore...

"That Others May Zoom"

Grumpy


Dragoon

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on September 15, 2007, 10:40:48 PM
What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

It's not simply that some folks don't like CAP using military officer rank.  It's just that some folks don't like CAP bastardizing it the way it does today.

Rank is designed to imply authority and responsibility.  In CAP it does neither.

CAP uses it basically as a professional development award, which is what ribbons are for.




ddelaney103

Quote from: Dragoon on September 20, 2007, 05:51:32 PM
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on September 15, 2007, 10:40:48 PM
What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

It's not simply that some folks don't like CAP using military officer rank.  It's just that some folks don't like CAP bastardizing it the way it does today.

Rank is designed to imply authority and responsibility.  In CAP it does neither.

CAP uses it basically as a professional development award, which is what ribbons are for.

Since we do have ribbons, and uniforms (almost) anyone can wear that can display them, grade as a measure of PD is redundant, not to mention confusing to those not read into the "grade as merit badge" philosophy.

If I find a job (Asst Ext AE Officer, for example) and stay in it for 10 years while hitting the required classes, I'll end up a Lt Col.  If I spend all my time working on MP and IC ratings and neglect CLC, I'll never promote.  Is this best for CAP?

One IC started promoting because the target's family took a Captain IC taking over from a Lt Col IC as a sign CAP has give up on the search.

Besides the "wannabe" factor, is there any reason to keep grade?  Does it further the mission beside the recruiting draw?  There's no operational use for it.

ddelaney103

There have been many suggested plans to "raise the standards" for CAP Officer grade.

I don't plan to rehash the plans here, but I do want to put forward a question:

Have you presented or supported a plan that would result in you losing grade if that plan was adopted?  Would you make CAP officers into a club so exclusive that it wouldn't have you as a member?

My answer to this is yes and no.

I have developed (and presented it to my Wing King) a plan to move most officers not holding leadership or certain higher staff positions from commissioned to FO/WO grade.  While I would give up my leaves, my relative place in the CAP pecking order wouldn't change - my grade would simply reflect my lack of major position.  So I'd lose the grade but not the status.

Anyone else?

jimmydeanno

nah, just grandfather those of us who have it already and make the new guys start the program... >:D
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

SDF_Specialist

I see where you're going. Each position is important in CAP in its own way. I would say that the demotion should come if you are not serving to the standards of that position.
SDF_Specialist

Dragoon

In a heartbeat.  Anything to  make our grade system more meaningful to the corporation, and closer to the military use of grade.

Pylon

I'd be willing to back a reasonable proposal to restructure our CAP system to more appropriately reflect what we do and how we operate.  If that meant giving up my railroad tracks for some other, maybe even arbitrary CAP-unique symbol, or being just plain "CAP Member Kieloch," you bet I'd be fine with that.   CAP grade doesn't get me anything more than strange looks.

Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

dwb

I suspect the number of people whose answer would be "no" is sufficiently large to basically kill any plan to "raise" the standard.

Regardless, CAP grade is not military grade; it is what it is, and I simply don't think it's causing enough problems in the organization that it needs the time and attention it gets on CAP Talk.

pixelwonk


Dragoon

Quote from: justin_bailey on September 20, 2007, 07:40:24 PM
Regardless, CAP grade is not military grade; it is what it is, and I simply don't think it's causing enough problems in the organization that it needs the time and attention it gets on CAP Talk.

If CAP isn't military grade, then why does it look just like it?

The time and attention it gets here is a sign of how important it is to the membership.  While serving the membership isn't anywhere near as important as serving the public, it's still a valid thing for a commander to think about. 

For example, it may mean that CAP tends to recruit (or create) folks who are more concerned with "bling" and "status" than with more pressing issues.  If so, that's something a commander should consider addressing. 

Since rank traditionally is related to authority, it may mean members have issues with how authority is used in CAP.  Again, commanders should care.

It may mean that many are concerned we are giving the wrong impression to the public.  Again, commanders should care.

So yeah, it matters.  The question is WHY does this issue keep coming up?  And what can the organization do to keep it from coming up in the future?