How do you handle cadets with improper uniforms?

[xray328]

Regarding the BDU's, if a cadets mom used stitch witch/fabric fusion on the patches, and they aren't even close what do you do?  Obviously you can't just undo them with out risk of destroying the uniform but I can't let them be out or regs either.  Lets say parents can't afford to buy everything again to correct it?  Now what?

Just looking to see how you'd handle it.

[arajca]

You can heat stitch witch and some fusibles and remove them with minimal mess. Check their websites and you should find instructions on how to do this.

[Brit_in_CAP]

You can heat stitch witch and some fusibles and remove them with minimal mess. Check their websites and you should find instructions on how to do this.

Indeed, and if that doesn't work then the cadet is stuck - pun intended - with a mess they have to clear up.

Actually, this doesn't just apply to cadets...I know a couple of Seniors who tried and failed with the fusible method!

My own experience has been well meaning parents who can't sew.

I usually counsel new parents and cadets to NOT try that route but we're fortunate to have a SM who's significant other is a seamstress.

To your original point, I'd give the cadet a couple of weeks to sort things out with permission to wear appropriate civilian attire in the interim.  Good point about the cost of replacement; worth asking around the unit to see if someone has an old item they can gift or pointing the parents towards a cheaper supply.  Have to remember that BDU is not part of the Minimum Required Uniform and we can't demand that they purchase although lacking a BDU would mean that some activities would not be accessible.  Tricky, and I wish I had better advice.

On balance - in the short term, I'd try and find a suitable, used, item within the squadron.

[winterg]

Using fusible bonding for uniforms is a personal pet peeve of mine. But this is real life and people use it.

Dritz actually offers a method that has some success of removing the residue.

Fusible bonding web / Stitch Witchery is designed as a permanent bond but you can attempt to remove any unwanted residue by following these steps:

1. Reheat iron on a dry cotton setting or as hot as your fabric will allow.
2. Place a scrap piece of a cotton terry towel over the residue.
3. Reheat the area with the iron for about 10 seconds.
4. Immediately pull away the heated scrap - the reheated residue should pull away from the fabric and adhere to the scrap.
5. Repeat this process until the residue has been completely removed. Be sure to use a clean area of the scrap fabric each time.

A used sewing machine from Craigslist or the thrift store and an afternoon watching YouTube videos should suffice for any squadron to have the means to sew the basic patches on for members.

If any members here would like any guidance or information about how to set a machine up for yourself, please feel free to PM me.

[TheSkyHornet]

I think it is key to mention that you should be sure to explain this to the individual when you discover the issue and avoid future occurrences.

You get a lot of people who think "this will work just as good" and it ends up not being the correct method/look. We had a cadet who lived with her grandmother, who thought any uniform combination would do because she didn't know any better. Ended up with the wrong uniform items. Hey, it happens. Learn from it, and try to explain to others early enough "I recommend....because...so you don't...."

[KatCAP]

We put a list together and said this is what it required.  You don't have it - get it.  Of you don't, no promotions because how can you promote without a proper uniform?

[TheSkyHornet]

We put a list together and said this is what it required.  You don't have it - get it.  Of you don't, no promotions because how can you promote without a proper uniform?

Are you going to mandate they purchase BDUs?

I can understand saying "If you're going to wear the BDU pants, you need the blouse as well."

[xray328]

Isn't a proper uniform just that, a single proper uniform (blues for instance?)

[Capt Thompson]

A thorough uniform class when they are basics, as part of the great start/training flight. Teach them how before they buy the patches, show them where to obtain a free download of 39-1 and a $2 sewing guage, and put the responsibility on the Cadet. Grandma isn't standing up in formation, so it's not her responsibility, if the Cadet was trained properly, and the uniform got messed up, give them a few weeks in civies to straighten out the mess for themselves.

As a Cadet, a sewed on everything myself by hand, and that was before youtube to show me how. I figured it out, and if something was wrong, it was spotted the next week in inspection, the patch was removed and I had a week to fix.

While we can't require a cadet to buy BDU's, in our case the Squadron has used that they can issue. If we're giving you the uniform and patches, we can certainly mandate that you don't use glue to attach them.

[TheSkyHornet]

A thorough uniform class when they are basics, as part of the great start/training flight. Teach them how before they buy the patches, show them where to obtain a free download of 39-1 and a $2 sewing guage, and put the responsibility on the Cadet. Grandma isn't standing up in formation, so it's not her responsibility, if the Cadet was trained properly, and the uniform got messed up, give them a few weeks in civies to straighten out the mess for themselves.

As a Cadet, a sewed on everything myself by hand, and that was before youtube to show me how. I figured it out, and if something was wrong, it was spotted the next week in inspection, the patch was removed and I had a week to fix.

While we can't require a cadet to buy BDU's, in our case the Squadron has used that they can issue. If we're giving you the uniform and patches, we can certainly mandate that you don't use glue to attach them.

Wholeheartedly agree; however, that really depends on the squadron. Sometimes absent leadership leads to continued lack of uniformity.

In our squadron, I've seen cadets come in wearing the wrong uniform (for example, the wrong flag patch). A flight sergeant informed him of the mistake, and told him it needed to be corrected. After a couple of meetings, it still wasn't corrected. But it takes one person of higher authority saying "When you can..." and suddenly it's not longer an issue. Now, every time you see a problem arise, it turns to "Whenever you feel like fixing it, eventually, sometime, in the future..."

Drives me insane. Drives the senior cadets insane.

A major issue is getting the parents/guardian/whoever on board with the situation and making them understanding. They don't want to spend the money. They already spent enough money. They don't have the time. The cadet is getting frustrated because the other cadets are getting frustrated, and the parents are getting pissed because they're kid is coming home saying "They told me I still need to fix it."

I very much support the idea of "Before you start...here's what you need to know so avoid the most trouble." The problem is getting someone to sit down with that cadet and going over that stuff with them, and not having to hold a complete class on uniforms for the entire group every time a new person joins. I suggest finding a cadet to sit with the newbies before any uniforms are purchased, going through all the essentials, each and every time someone joins.

Verbally saying "Here's what you need....a pair of BDUs, here's the patch, sew it on, get blues, all the uniform manuals are online..." will usually lead to someone coming back with an incorrect item, or improper uniform wear, something that's going to look out of place.

[Capt Thompson]

Agreed, but hopefully if we're recruiting effectively, we have a group going through the great start program, and then a uniform class could be added in to the regular curriculum. If it's just a cadet at a time, then an assigned mentor, i.e. element leader or flight sergeant, should have a one on one before any uniform items are bought.

I see uniform discrepencies even in senior NCO's and Officers though, who were in a hurry and too lazy to double check 39-1. A uniform class for the entire Squadron once a year or so may not be a bad thing.

Either way, when a discrepency is observed, a timeframe needs to be given for correction. When I was a cadet, my C/CC would cut the patch off during inspection and hand it to the Cadet with instructions on how to fix the error, and they were given a week. This is a bit extreme nowadays, I definitely wouldn't take the seam ripper to any Cadet's uniform, but a reasonable timeframe (not more than 2 weeks) should be given for correction of the issue. If we just say fix it when you can, then it'll never get done.

[TheSkyHornet]

Agreed, but hopefully if we're recruiting effectively, we have a group going through the great start program, and then a uniform class could be added in to the regular curriculum. If it's just a cadet at a time, then an assigned mentor, i.e. element leader or flight sergeant, should have a one on one before any uniform items are bought.

I see uniform discrepencies even in senior NCO's and Officers though, who were in a hurry and too lazy to double check 39-1. A uniform class for the entire Squadron once a year or so may not be a bad thing.

Either way, when a discrepency is observed, a timeframe needs to be given for correction. When I was a cadet, my C/CC would cut the patch off during inspection and hand it to the Cadet with instructions on how to fix the error, and they were given a week. This is a bit extreme nowadays, I definitely wouldn't take the seam ripper to any Cadet's uniform, but a reasonable timeframe (not more than 2 weeks) should be given for correction of the issue. If we just say fix it when you can, then it'll never get done.

Our squadron appointed a Training Flight Officer for just this situation---new members who are clueless and need the tools to succeed. His job is to not only help train drill, but to serve as the meet-and-greet face when a new person stops by a meeting and introduce them to CAP. Definitely a plus to have at the beginning of their CAP career, prior to buying any uniforms.

I will say, we do have a certain senior member in our unit who feels the need to rush over to new people, start spewing a bunch of information, and tries to help get the person acclimated as quickly as possible. This is usually where the structure breaks down and now you have a clueless person purchasing items they either don't need or the wrong item.

By the way, Matt. I'd be PISSED if someone came up to me and ripped something off my uniform. I do agree with the time frame though. If they don't comply by a certain date, it should become "Please, refrain from wearing the uniform until corrected." Or don't even wear it at all until corrected.

[Capt Thompson]

Seam ripper = small knife used to separate a seam without damaging the cloth. It quickly removes the patch without damaging the uniform.

Usually if it was a crooked pin, he would remove it and hand it to a cadet, and have them correct it in the mirror after inspection. A crooked patch would be removed, and the cadet would be told to put it in their pocket and sew it back on over the next week.

As a young cadet, I didn't see anything wrong with it, but now as a senior I obviously see why it would be frowned upon. The positive side though, most cadets took better care to get it right before inspection.

When I became C/CC, my inspections were just as tough, but lacked the seam ripper. If the patch was horribly wrong though, I would usually ask the Cadet to remove it, and we would pin it in place correctly before they left, so they knew where it needed to be sewn.

Agreed only one person needs to be telling a Cadet where to obtain their new uniform parts, what to get, and how to assemble them, and that person needs to be well informed. The worst thing is to tell a Cadet something that isn't authorized and have them spend money on it, plus time putting it on a uniform, only to be told at inspection it is wrong.

[TheSkyHornet]

Seam ripper = small knife used to separate a seam without damaging the cloth. It quickly removes the patch without damaging the uniform.

Usually if it was a crooked pin, he would remove it and hand it to a cadet, and have them correct it in the mirror after inspection. A crooked patch would be removed, and the cadet would be told to put it in their pocket and sew it back on over the next week.

As a young cadet, I didn't see anything wrong with it, but now as a senior I obviously see why it would be frowned upon. The positive side though, most cadets took better care to get it right before inspection.

When I became C/CC, my inspections were just as tough, but lacked the seam ripper. If the patch was horribly wrong though, I would usually ask the Cadet to remove it, and we would pin it in place correctly before they left, so they knew where it needed to be sewn.

Agreed only one person needs to be telling a Cadet where to obtain their new uniform parts, what to get, and how to assemble them, and that person needs to be well informed. The worst thing is to tell a Cadet something that isn't authorized and have them spend money on it, plus time putting it on a uniform, only to be told at inspection it is wrong.

I know what a seam-ripper is, lol. I mostly meant "don't come up to me or anyone else and try to remove something from my uniform, including a hanging thread." Address it first. Explain the issue. Then tell the person to fix it (using whatever tools available), or help them fix it. It's usually an issue with a new member who simply doesn't know. They won't figure it out if you just say "Fix it. You have 5 minutes."

In the case of our cadet with the flag patch, his dad bought him a forward-facing flag patch instead of the reversed. Simple mistake for most people who don't know. He was told, "You need a flag patch," went online, ordered one, and there you have it: wrong patch. He was told after it was sewn on, "You have the wrong flag. It's supposed to be the reverse flag, like this (points to their own)." He said, "Got it. I'll get it fixed." A few meetings later, still not fixed. CC says "Well, they're doing away with the flag patch anyway. But whenever you can get around to it." I wouldn't walk up to him and cut it off his uniform, but I've said, "You need to get that patch fixed or removed, but that's the incorrect one." Someone higher than me told him not to worry about it, so that stands as the easier option...not worrying about it.

Frosts my cookies.

Tell you what I'm really getting tired of are haircuts out of regulations. They want their hair styled for school, so if they cut it shorter, it ruins their school hairdo. Mom takes them to get a $30 haircut, gelled up and faux-hawk. I say "Your hair is out of regs." Mom's mad because she just spent good money. Cadets fault? Yeah, I suppose. He should know better. But nobody explained what it meant to have your hair within regs beforehand. Now mom wants to know why it wasn't an issue before but it is now. Now you're picking on her kid.

I always make the joke that I have my clippers in my backpack, which sometimes I do as I buzz my own head. But I definitely wouldn't cut someone's hair without their parents say it was okay first. Sometimes I wish they would just let me do it already 

[Capt Thompson]

We periodically have a parents day, where they can come in and learn about the program. Whenever a new Cadet comes in, we make it a point to sit down with the parents before they sign the paperwork, and go I very things like expectations, uniform needs etc. If mom knows before signing on the dotted line that a faux hawk isn't allowed, she won't spend money on one.

As for the flag patch, on the bright side it n is correct for the flight suit, so it's not a waste if the Cadet plans on aircrew training someday. This is where a commitment needs to be in place among all Seniors and Cadet staff, if someone corrects a Cadet, no one higher should over rule the decision. Even if they do, no one in the Squadron is higher than the 39-1.

[TheSkyHornet]

We periodically have a parents day, where they can come in and learn about the program. Whenever a new Cadet comes in, we make it a point to sit down with the parents before they sign the paperwork, and go I very things like expectations, uniform needs etc. If mom knows before signing on the dotted line that a faux hawk isn't allowed, she won't spend money on one.

As for the flag patch, on the bright side it n is correct for the flight suit, so it's not a waste if the Cadet plans on aircrew training someday. This is where a commitment needs to be in place among all Seniors and Cadet staff, if someone corrects a Cadet, no one higher should over rule the decision. Even if they do, no one in the Squadron is higher than the 39-1.

*bows in praise*  :clap:

[Eaker Guy]

We periodically have a parents day, where they can come in and learn about the program. Whenever a new Cadet comes in, we make it a point to sit down with the parents before they sign the paperwork, and go I very things like expectations, uniform needs etc. If mom knows before signing on the dotted line that a faux hawk isn't allowed, she won't spend money on one.

As for the flag patch, on the bright side it n is correct for the flight suit, so it's not a waste if the Cadet plans on aircrew training someday. This is where a commitment needs to be in place among all Seniors and Cadet staff, if someone corrects a Cadet, no one higher should over rule the decision. Even if they do, no one in the Squadron is higher than the 39-1.

*bows in praise*  :clap:

Cue the ethereal lights and music!

All hail CAPM 39-1!!!!

[Capt Thompson]

I'm imagining a giant 39-1 descending from the clouds in a ray of sunshine with rainbows behind it Sorry about that last post I typed it from my phone and just noticed how much autocorrect botched it lol.

[Eaker Guy]

I'm imagining a giant 39-1 descending from the clouds in a ray of sunshine with rainbows behind it Sorry about that last post I typed it from my phone and just noticed how much autocorrect botched it lol.

WOW!!!!!!! 

[Eaker Guy]

In all serousness, Lt Thompson is right. No one is above CAPM 39-1.

+1 on the orientation. Good idea which I hope to implement in the near future.