First Aid/CPR Certification Requirement for ES (specific)

[GroundHawg]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

Im a fan of ECSI as well. I like that they offer a Wilderness FA option and they are very reasonable cost wise. Alot of places are now offering CPR/First Aid online courses. I like it for recurrent, but not for initial training.

[RiverAux]

^ That gets to the heart of it, CAP doesn't certify a pilot any more than it certifies a driver who is issued a CAP DL.

True, we don't issue them their license to fly a plane but we teach them how to fly a plane on CAP missions.  A better example would be our other SAR training -- if we can teach someone how to be an IC on a complex SAR mission involving up to several dozen planes and 100+ people (a rare mission, but it could happen), then we should be capable of teaching someone to apply direct pressure to an bleeding wound.

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members. 

[Eclipse]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

It would sure be interesting to be able to chart who did what, when, that moved us from having ambulances and hanging IV's to where we are today.

[davidsinn]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

It would sure be interesting to be able to chart who did what, when, that moved us from having ambulances and hanging IV's to where we are today.

Lawyers.

[RiverAux]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

We can find 100+ examples of CAP members that have died on duty over the years.  I'd say that it is is much harder to kill someone by doing basic first aid improperly than other activities CAP is involved in. 

[Spaceman3750]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

[davidsinn]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

ARC instructors don't do this all day, everyday. They have real jobs too, just like us. This would be a good use for our HSOs. I've been taking ARC FA/CPR off and on since I was in elementary school. The only thing that has changed has been the CPR rythym. BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

[Spaceman3750]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

ARC instructors don't do this all day, everyday. They have real jobs too, just like us. This would be a good use for our HSOs. I've been taking ARC FA/CPR off and on since I was in elementary school. The only thing that has changed has been the CPR rythym. BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

Sorry, I meant the org as a whole, not necessarily the instructor (though most of the instructors try to stay busy too).

[RiverAux]

If we were talking about First Responder level training, I'd agree about needing to get it from an agency that focuses on it.  But, again, this is BASIC stuff that doesn't ever really change. 

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911. 

[Eclipse]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

[Spaceman3750]

If we were talking about First Responder level training, I'd agree about needing to get it from an agency that focuses on it.  But, again, this is BASIC stuff that doesn't ever really change. 

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911.

"The book says that you need to apply a splint, but you'll never need to do this so let's just read about it."

I've fallen victim to that logic at times, and so have a lot of other SETs. Outside organizations with firm certification standards don't tend to have that problem, and while it's arguable that CAP has the same thing, I've seen it disregarded enough to know that it would continue to be with new tasks.

[davidsinn]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

[RiverAux]

If they Boy Scouts have their own class, we certainly can. 

[Eclipse]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911.

I suppose you never seen anyone do a 4-hour radio class in 2?

Or a compass course tasking by showing a group of people how to use a compass?

[RiverAux]

Well, if you believe CAP in general fails to follow our standards then you really should avoid doing ES as obviously we're a bunch of unsafe yahoos. 

[Eclipse]

Not exactly what I said.

[lordmonar]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said).

I got to drop the BS flag on this one.

Having sat through a lot of First Aid courses over the last 30+ years.....CAP is certainly capable of providing just as good training as most ARC and AHA courses.

Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

Well that is true for all of our training.....the fix to that problem is to have a real instructor course instead of the SETS power point we have now.

The question I have....is why is First Aid training more important than say MP or IC training? 

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.</end rant>

You get that same exact thing with ARC and AHA instructors.  I was an ARC Instructor Trainer for eight years....I would sit on instructor's course for their Re-evals...and you saw that thing all the time.

[lordmonar]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

In my years with the BSA....I was more in harms way then I was ever with CAP.
I disagree about your Odds there.  a) there are 4.5 MILLION boyscouts to our 60,000 members.  b) the BSA is always doing large scale events that increase the chances of meeting up with an injury.

[lordmonar]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

+1000
ARC's and AHA's paradyme assume an urban setting with an EMT response within 15 minutes.
BSA's paradyme assumes that you are out on a 2 day hike 5-10 miles to civilisation.

[Spaceman3750]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

+1000
ARC's and AHA's paradyme assume an urban setting with an EMT response within 15 minutes.
BSA's paradyme assumes that you are out on a 2 day hike 5-10 miles to civilisation.

My concerns are rooted in practical experience with other areas of CAP - we simply don't produce courses of similar caliber. I'm not saying that we don't do a good job, but for once let's defer to the SME's instead of trying to do everything. The wheel has already been invented many times here, there's no reason to burn man hours and money doing it again. Furthermore, we need to be fostering relationships with outside organizations, not breaking them down because "we can do it better than you can". ECSI and ARC both teach WRFA courses, and ARC's course was specifically designed to work with the BSA - no reason not to work with what's already out there.

Though you and I agree on other issues, I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, so there's no point in my going on and on . I'll let you and Eclipse fight this one out and in the meantime I'll go back to working on building the ES capability of my group with what we already have.