First Aid/CPR Certification Requirement for ES (specific)

[Jagger3939]

I have a question that might not be simple to answer.
I am a Basic Life Support (BLS) Instructor with the American Heart Association.
I have taught normal certification courses that my Training Center issues certification cards.
However, we have a program called Family & Friends - which is an express course, and it is almost 80% cheaper to teach (which makes it that much more cheaper for the students).
However, they don't receive an AHA Certification card - instead they receive a Course Completion card that comes with their textbook. This isn't a certification, just completion certificate/card.
What are the regulations - specifically, for cadets or seniors to do ES, do they have to be "certified" or do they just need proof they took a class?

[lordmonar]

IIRC....the requirment is to get training in first aid....not to be certified.

So....yes that course could count.

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1309/kw/ground%20team%20first%20aid/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyODIxNTg0Ni9zaWQvT2h5YVVJUGs%3D

Here is the link to KB.

[Eclipse]

This depends on your wing, and make sure you ask the question directly before you invest effort in something you have to redo.

Most require an outside instructor to provide a class which then issues cards with an expiration date.
This generally precludes the "my mom's a nurse and showed me stuff..." training, however it does not
prohibit CAP members who are also instructors from providing training, as long as that training is done
in accordance with the members' outside sanctioning organization.

See 60-3, Page 17:
f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care.  CAP is not an emergency medical care or
paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such.  CAP will not be the primary
provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be
used to support such activities.  The only type of medical aid that should be administered by
CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed
necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering.  This treatment must be executed by a person
qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level.  When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at  http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02,
Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings.
CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any
care provided is at the members own risk.  Though medical supplies and equipment are not
normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions
may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided.

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.

In terms of deciding whether or not your class meets the 60-3 standard, I would look at whether or not the course meets OSHA requirements for workplace education. For example, the ARC certifying classes do, but our non-certifying classes (like hands-only CPR) do not meet OSHA requirements. AHA should be able to provide more information on whether or not the class you want to teach meets that requirement (my guess is no).

Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

[Walkman]

What about the requirement to have a card as part of the GTM3 24 hour pack?

a. 24 hour pack
    1) On your person:
        a) Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap. The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs.(T)
        b) Notepad and pencil (T)
        c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

That part always confused me. We don't necessarily need a course that issues a card, but we're required to have a card with our gear.

[Eclipse]

We don't necessarily need a course that issues a card, but we're required to have a card with our gear.

That's mostly another place the text doesn't match the program reality.  A lot of wing's don't issue ROA's, and most everything
on that list is verifiable online in anything but Armageddon.   I carry a pack of cards that's about 3/8' thick, but mostly because
I have no place else to keep them.

It's also somewhat circular - you will be hard-pressed for anyone who can / will provide the training at the required level that does not issue a card.
In many cases this is because the organization that trained and certified the instructor prohibits the use of their materials outside of
a sanctioned class.

The reason most wings require a card is to keep them out of the business of having to decide on an individual basis whether or not
a given curriculum meets the requirement.  it also keeps members out of the business of medical training.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM 

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

Oh -- my error it was an American Heart Association instructor we had for the classes we attend at the squadron not the ARC.  In fact I had called the local chapter (ARC) and asked that as a non profit organization whether we could get a discount for our unpaid volunteers. Never got a answer back from them after two phone calls.   Personally, I can't get excited about the local chapter and have NO interest as a CAP member in assisting them whatsoever

RM   

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

Oh -- my error it was an American Heart Association instructor we had for the classes we attend at the squadron not the ARC.  In fact I had called the local chapter (ARC) and asked that as a non profit organization whether we could get a discount for our unpaid volunteers. Never got a answer back from them after two phone calls.   Personally, I can't get excited about the local chapter and have NO interest as a CAP member in assisting them whatsoever
RM
RM

How recently did you call? ARC underwent a restructuring in health & safety services last year that centralized training under several regional training centers (TC) who handle all scheduling and sales for classes. The chapters don't handle that any more - even as an instructor I have a hard time speaking with anyone local about classes.

They still don't give discounts though. Your best bet is to link up directly with an instructor who has an Authorized Provider (AP) agreement.

[Eclipse]

In most cases, instructors from the various organizations are prohibited from giving free classes, and required to provide the materials, etc., so there is a built-in base cost before an instructor who might charge for his time. AHA, ARC, etc., may be "non-profit", but that doesn't mean they do things for "free",
and curriculum development, training aid production, liability insurance and other program costs have to be supported by the student fees.

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

[Spaceman3750]

In most cases, instructors from the various organizations are prohibited from giving free classes, and required to provide the materials, etc., so there is a built-in base cost before an instructor who might charge for his time. AHA, ARC, etc., may be "non-profit", but that doesn't mean they do things for "free",
and curriculum development, training aid production, liability insurance and other program costs have to be supported by the student fees.

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

Exactly - the orgs I've seen and worked with have very well-developed curriculum that costs a lot of money. Plus the infrastructure to support instructors is pretty costly as well.

There's no way to get around the money issue with my org - when I put the record into the computer it won't let me print cards until I pony up, plain and simple. Either I'm collecting money from students and paying with that or I'm paying out of pocket.

[lordmonar]

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

In the case of ARC...they are violating their instructor agreement.
I used to be an ARC Instructor Trainer (that is I taught people how to be ARC instructors).

Now it is possible to give the instruction....with out charging.....but you cannot issue cards with out it and that may not even be allowed anymore.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.

In terms of deciding whether or not your class meets the 60-3 standard, I would look at whether or not the course meets OSHA requirements for workplace education. For example, the ARC certifying classes do, but our non-certifying classes (like hands-only CPR) do not meet OSHA requirements. AHA should be able to provide more information on whether or not the class you want to teach meets that requirement (my guess is no).

Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

Interestingly the local American Red Cross website shows CPR for $70/90 and First Aid $70/$90.  So it would appear that there's "profit" in there for "someone" isn't there   (BTW I have no issue with training be charged for paid employees that require this and their employer is footing the bill OR they need it to maintain employment  -- it really has to do with giving a "break" to the unpaid volunteers).

One would think that the leadership in CAP would be working on the best cost effective method for the membership to get this training (since it is required in a regulation), perhaps even approaching the ARC & AHA for potential discounts    (Perhaps another option is for the military to provide this training).
RM   

[lordmonar]

Pesonally.....I would just steal the BSA's First Aid Merit Badge book and go with that.

We could conduct our own training and just record it in E-services.
Require recertification every couple of years (which is not required at this time).

Easy, Pleasey.

[Eclipse]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

[lordmonar]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

[Spaceman3750]

Pesonally.....I would just steal the BSA's First Aid Merit Badge book and go with that.

We could conduct our own training and just record it in E-services.
Require recertification every couple of years (which is not required at this time).

Easy, Pleasey.

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

Let's let the outside orgs keep doing their job so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. This is one case where I don't like "easy peasy" because you end up with crap.

On a different note, eventually I'm going to bridge into teaching ARC Wilderness/Remote First Aid. That seems to be a good course and would be beneficial to our ground teams (and since the scope is limited to emergencies, Eclipse doesn't have to burst a blood vessel).

[Eclipse]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

[RogueLeader]

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.

[Spaceman3750]

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.

The courses are administered by the AF, but our courses are developed by CAP, right? How is the AF supposed to create materials about the inner-workings of CAP programs?

I could name others as well - the ES officer course, the Comm tests, etc.

[Eclipse]

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.

Yes, AFIADL is run by the USAF, however it only manages CAP tests, it has nothing to do with creating or updating them

[lordmonar]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

Just because I lost my card....does not mean I can stop serious bleeding, splint a broken leg, spot the signs of shock, diabetic shock/coma, perform CPR.

I beleive in insuring that a your skills are brushed up from time to time.....but that is different then giving someone 70$ for a new card ever 2-3 years.

If you look at the regulations about recerting your ES quals.....it says you do not have demonstrate all the tasks....just prove to the certifier that you know the required information.

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

[Eclipse]

If you look at the regulations about recerting your ES quals.....it says you do not have demonstrate all the tasks....just prove to the certifier that you know the required information.

The standard set for the training, as per 60-3, indicates that retraining is important and that the certifying body may set any standard it deems
appropriate.

AHSI, for example, expires every 3 years.  They are the certifying body, the SET merely accepts the card as the completion of the required training.
Past the expiration date, that card is no more valuable than an expired driver's license, since the body who certified you now says you are no
longer "current".

Since the SET is not, by design, a First Aid instructor, there is no way you can properly "show him you still know the required information".

Also, if you're paying $70, you're doing something wrong.  I've never in my life paid more than $50 for a class, and that was for a full-on prenatal
first aid & CPR with the additional infant care added in.  If the ARC wants to price themselves out of the market, fine, there are other alternatives.

[Eclipse]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

Something that should be discussed, in advance, with your wing, since they have the ultimate authority.

For proper approval, though, it would need to be shown that the SABC meets or exceeds the standard set in 60-3 (ASTM F2171), and then there's still
the issue of no cards, no sanctioning body, and no required retraining.  Further, would the USAF allow its instructors to teach no military personnel and
then accept the liability?

[SarDragon]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

[Eclipse]

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

Was that under the WMU or eServices?  I think the WMU did that, but in looking at eServices I don't see where that would be automatic, and I have been in front of the curve because an FA cert is required for my as a motorcycle instructor.

It certainly should be something considered during a requal sortie, since an expired first aid cert means you are no longer fam/prepped.

[Spaceman3750]

Really? When my first aid expired, that immediately expired my FLM and GT3 ratings. This was a few years ago, so things might have changed.

Was that under the WMU or eServices?  I think the WMU did that, but in looking at eServices I don't see where that would be automatic, and I have been in front of the curve because an FA cert is required for my as a motorcycle instructor.

It certainly should be something considered during a requal sortie, since an expired first aid cert means you are no longer fam/prepped.

First aid is an advanced task.

[Eclipse]

First aid is an advanced task.

Duh, you're right.

Which puts it squarely in consideration during re-qualification.

[Spaceman3750]

First aid is an advanced task.

Duh, you're right.

Which puts it squarely in consideration during re-qualification.

Unless you're a GTM2/1 or GTL, in which case the evaluator is going to take the advanced tasks from the highest qual since when you renew your highest your lower ones renew (at least that's what the table says, who knows what eServices actually does).

[Eclipse]

That's correct, eservices only does what you tell it, and only gives equivalency credit when it is manually entered, though one could
make the argument that the evaluator would be within his rights to ask to see the first aid card, since the roll-up tasks are requisites
for the higher ones, and that card is specifically called out by regs as required equipment.

Another unintended consequence of breaking up the rating into 3 levels.

[Ed Bos]

Here's a question too...

The USAF does not teach 'first aid' to its members anymore. We have 'Self-Aid Buddy Care.' It is an 'approved course' for our basic work-place needs. That being said it teaches things that my actual first-aid class didn't teach. This includes objects in eyes, controlling bleeding both under fire and in a non-hostile environment, treating bullet wounds, etc. If we went through the class as a unit, taught by one of our SABC certified instructors...would that meet the requirement? No card is issued, but the training is probably into some really nasty things we should never see on a mission.

Having been, only until very recently, an AF SABC instructor, I asked John Desmarais at NHQ if SABC met the requirement.
His answer was yes.  The major concern was whether or not there was a hand-on portion of the course, and not just academic instruction.

As was pointed out though, YMMV.

[Ed Bos]

That's correct, eservices only does what you tell it, and only gives equivalency credit when it is manually entered, though one could
make the argument that the evaluator would be within his rights to ask to see the first aid card, since the roll-up tasks are requisites
for the higher ones, and that card is specifically called out by regs as required equipment.

Another unintended consequence of breaking up the rating into 3 levels.

The card is only required if it's current.

The "c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)" requirement on the equipment list is only to ensure that you have everything relevant that you may need.  I'll recommend that be clarified in the next draft of the GSAR reference text.

[Ed Bos]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

Worthless, but not required by CAP.

For reasons that relate to a whole other can o' worms....   

[sarmed1]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

[RiverAux]

I really don't understand why CAP couldn't just incorporate some of tasks found in typical first aid classes directly into the ground team training program.  Its not like the basics of how to stop bleeding, etc. are going to change so often that the information is going to get terribly outdated.  This dependence on outside agencies for teaching material that is less technical and difficult than a lot of what we teach outselves in the ES program just wastes member time and money.  If CAP can take on the "liability" of certifying someone as a CAP pilot, we should be able to certify how someone applies direct pressure to a bleeding wound. 

[Eclipse]

^ That gets to the heart of it, CAP doesn't certify a pilot any more than it certifies a driver who is issued a CAP DL.

A Form 5 or 91 confirms the knowledge and understanding of CAP's internal flight procedures, but member's are simply substantiating
the completion of an outside licensure.  CAP has no say whether an individual member can fly airplanes, only CAP airplanes.  Members
"grounded" by CAP for some procedural infraction  are free to fly their personal aircraft home.  Hardly "certification".

Exactly the same as with first aid.

[Sapper168]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

To be honest a quit reading somewhere in the first line.  I was overwhelmed and scared by that big block of letters....

[Eclipse]

I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

In days of yore we paid to have several members certified as instructors, which was great for a while, but then they moved out of state and with them went the investment and the expertise.

Another advantage of doing this out-of-house is less risk of a "ticket punch", whether it's ICS, First Aid, or whatever, in a lot of cases, classes taught internally are both "inbred" and "expedient", since the instructors "know what we need".

[GroundHawg]

RE: USAF SABC.  My wing hands out a "card" its paper wallet sized completion certificate/trainig record (I am sure there is a form number on it somewhere) When I was at AFSOC they had their own "card" as well.  It does have a training expiration date (I think its actually every 24 moths).  I have in the pass taught SABC to CAP units to meet the GTM first aid requirement and issued cards and recorded the roster with the wing SABC monitor.  The USAF participates in the Military Training Network......which is basically an AHA affiliated program offering CPR and ACLS that meet the AHA teaching standards but specific to military personnel (civilian employees included) I have also issued MTN completion cards to CAP members.  Both have fell under the guideline of the commanders discretiuon in support of CAP programs jargon out of the governing AFI's (SABC says somehting along the lines CC can direct other base personnel to complete at their discretion etc etc)
That being said the availability/permission may realy only extend to units that meet on a military base, and then likely only if you have an "in" with an instructor.  Also they arent worth much outside of military circles.  Though never as good as free I am a big fan of ECSI.  They are very cost effective for both CPR and first aid.  They offer the same levels of CPR as the AHA/ARC from a bystander level to a proffesional rescuer level and first aid form a basic thru first responder, including a wilderness specific course (8, 16 or 32 hours options).  They offer both an instructor development course or a "grandfathering" for people that hold an instructor qualification in another (usually healthcare related) discipline.  You can establish your own "training center"  I have sene it done by individual members, squadrons and wing level CAP folks out there (as well as numerous private and public entities)
The major cost stipulation is that you buy the instructor resource kit for whatever course you are going to teach and you buy the cards.  Standard First Aid, CPR and AED is $240 for the instructor kit, $14 for the book and a sheet of 6 cards is like $30.  A wing could easily purchase the instructor kit and a library of books to loan out to students and squadron could register thier local level medical guy as an instructor under the wings training site and ideally only show a $5 cost to students (maybe $10 if you wanted to recoup the initial book and tool kit investment)

mk

Im a fan of ECSI as well. I like that they offer a Wilderness FA option and they are very reasonable cost wise. Alot of places are now offering CPR/First Aid online courses. I like it for recurrent, but not for initial training.

[RiverAux]

^ That gets to the heart of it, CAP doesn't certify a pilot any more than it certifies a driver who is issued a CAP DL.

True, we don't issue them their license to fly a plane but we teach them how to fly a plane on CAP missions.  A better example would be our other SAR training -- if we can teach someone how to be an IC on a complex SAR mission involving up to several dozen planes and 100+ people (a rare mission, but it could happen), then we should be capable of teaching someone to apply direct pressure to an bleeding wound.

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members. 

[Eclipse]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

It would sure be interesting to be able to chart who did what, when, that moved us from having ambulances and hanging IV's to where we are today.

[davidsinn]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

It would sure be interesting to be able to chart who did what, when, that moved us from having ambulances and hanging IV's to where we are today.

Lawyers.

[RiverAux]

First Aid is not complex compared to many things that CAP teaches its members.

True, but the ability of an IC to "kill" someone is much less direct.

We can find 100+ examples of CAP members that have died on duty over the years.  I'd say that it is is much harder to kill someone by doing basic first aid improperly than other activities CAP is involved in. 

[Spaceman3750]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

[davidsinn]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

ARC instructors don't do this all day, everyday. They have real jobs too, just like us. This would be a good use for our HSOs. I've been taking ARC FA/CPR off and on since I was in elementary school. The only thing that has changed has been the CPR rythym. BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

[Spaceman3750]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said). Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.

</end rant>

ARC instructors don't do this all day, everyday. They have real jobs too, just like us. This would be a good use for our HSOs. I've been taking ARC FA/CPR off and on since I was in elementary school. The only thing that has changed has been the CPR rythym. BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

Sorry, I meant the org as a whole, not necessarily the instructor (though most of the instructors try to stay busy too).

[RiverAux]

If we were talking about First Responder level training, I'd agree about needing to get it from an agency that focuses on it.  But, again, this is BASIC stuff that doesn't ever really change. 

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911. 

[Eclipse]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

[Spaceman3750]

If we were talking about First Responder level training, I'd agree about needing to get it from an agency that focuses on it.  But, again, this is BASIC stuff that doesn't ever really change. 

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911.

"The book says that you need to apply a splint, but you'll never need to do this so let's just read about it."

I've fallen victim to that logic at times, and so have a lot of other SETs. Outside organizations with firm certification standards don't tend to have that problem, and while it's arguable that CAP has the same thing, I've seen it disregarded enough to know that it would continue to be with new tasks.

[davidsinn]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

[RiverAux]

If they Boy Scouts have their own class, we certainly can. 

[Eclipse]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency

Based on what?  How can you lower the standard for what is in the basic first aid course?  It already isn't much more advanced than calling 911.

I suppose you never seen anyone do a 4-hour radio class in 2?

Or a compass course tasking by showing a group of people how to use a compass?

[RiverAux]

Well, if you believe CAP in general fails to follow our standards then you really should avoid doing ES as obviously we're a bunch of unsafe yahoos. 

[Eclipse]

Not exactly what I said.

[lordmonar]

Teaching our own First Aid training would lead to a lower standard of FA training and proficiency (as Eclipse said).

I got to drop the BS flag on this one.

Having sat through a lot of First Aid courses over the last 30+ years.....CAP is certainly capable of providing just as good training as most ARC and AHA courses.

Bottom line, it needs to be done by an organization that does it all day, every day. The curriculum will be better, the standard will be higher (though FA isn't that hard), and the instructors will be more proficient (ARC requires 16+ hours of training to become a FA/CPR instructor; how much training are we going to give our instructors?). CAP won't have to take on liability insurance and when I get sued I don't have to argue whether or not I'm covered under Good Sam with a card that was issued by a group that nobody's heard of before.

Well that is true for all of our training.....the fix to that problem is to have a real instructor course instead of the SETS power point we have now.

The question I have....is why is First Aid training more important than say MP or IC training? 

You also avoid the "the book only shows you how to do X, but since I'm an EMT I'm going to show you how to do X, Y, and Z" trap.</end rant>

You get that same exact thing with ARC and AHA instructors.  I was an ARC Instructor Trainer for eight years....I would sit on instructor's course for their Re-evals...and you saw that thing all the time.

[lordmonar]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

In my years with the BSA....I was more in harms way then I was ever with CAP.
I disagree about your Odds there.  a) there are 4.5 MILLION boyscouts to our 60,000 members.  b) the BSA is always doing large scale events that increase the chances of meeting up with an injury.

[lordmonar]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

+1000
ARC's and AHA's paradyme assume an urban setting with an EMT response within 15 minutes.
BSA's paradyme assumes that you are out on a 2 day hike 5-10 miles to civilisation.

[Spaceman3750]

BSA doesn't seem to have any problems doing their own FA training so why do we? Unlike BSA we actively try to recruit medical professionals. Let's actually use them.

The BSA doesn't have a mission mandate that puts them in harms way, they are teaching First Aid as a general life skill. The odds of someone in the BSA ever coming across an injured person that they need to administer aid to is 1/10 of the odds for CAP, and CAP's odds are near zero.

I'd be curious to know where we are actively recruiting medical professionals for their specific skills.

We give them advanced rank simply for being a medical professional. Sounds like targeted recruiting to me.

BSA's first aid is actually a better fit for what we do than ARCs basic first aid. BSA focuses on stuff happening in the field while ARC is more generalized. BSA teaches you how to get an injured team mate back to civilization for example. That's a pretty useful skill in my mind.

+1000
ARC's and AHA's paradyme assume an urban setting with an EMT response within 15 minutes.
BSA's paradyme assumes that you are out on a 2 day hike 5-10 miles to civilisation.

My concerns are rooted in practical experience with other areas of CAP - we simply don't produce courses of similar caliber. I'm not saying that we don't do a good job, but for once let's defer to the SME's instead of trying to do everything. The wheel has already been invented many times here, there's no reason to burn man hours and money doing it again. Furthermore, we need to be fostering relationships with outside organizations, not breaking them down because "we can do it better than you can". ECSI and ARC both teach WRFA courses, and ARC's course was specifically designed to work with the BSA - no reason not to work with what's already out there.

Though you and I agree on other issues, I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, so there's no point in my going on and on . I'll let you and Eclipse fight this one out and in the meantime I'll go back to working on building the ES capability of my group with what we already have.

[Eclipse]

I'll let you and Eclipse fight this one out and in the meantime I'll go back to working on building the ES capability of my group with what we already have.

Hey!  You think 14K is going to make itself?!

[RiverAux]

Furthermore, we need to be fostering relationships with outside organizations, not breaking them down because "we can do it better than you can".

Well, if the "relationship" consists our members paying them money to do stuff for us.....

[lordmonar]

I got nothing against the ARC and AHA......and I got nothing against the SQTR telling us to get first aid training.

I am certainly not suggesting we reinvent the wheel.

We already have seveal first aid tasks in our GT SQTRs.  Why not add a few more?  We can use the BSA merit badge book for the task guide information.

Pros:
it speeds up our taining because we can do it all in house.
We tailor the tasks and first aid information based on our needs and our paradymns.
It standadises the training.  Everyone trains from the same book, with the same standards.
It makes recertifiying easier.

Cons:
It can cost anywhere from $10 to $70 for a course.
There is confusion about what course is acceptable.  ARC, AHA, BSA, SABC, CERT, First Responder, Wilderness First aid and a whole host of other certifing agencies.

I don't care one way or the other....but when we talk about spending man power and money......I would like to spend a few peoples time and money instead of asking each and everyone of our members to spend theirs every 2-3 years.

[RiverAux]

Especially when you consider all the restrictions we place on when our members can give aid anyway it makes no sense to worry too much about what organization is certifying their training. 

[sarmed1]

ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

[GroundHawg]

ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

[RiverAux]

ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

A perfect example of the problem--- it seems to me that a lot of the first aid training given to CAP members is by CAP members who are also certified by some other organization.  Now, some claim that if a CAP member were teaching first aid tasks as part of the CAP ES program that they would be more likely to pencil whip their students through.  Just what is stopping these dual-hatted CAP members from doing it now? 

How are we any better off by having them spend time getting certified by some other agency?  Those that are not going to teach to standard are going to do it no matter what organization prints out the little card.  They're still quite likely to be the same CAP member that will be teaching how to do line searches at the next meeting. 

I tend to trust our members to do things right, but if they're not, give them the boot.

[lordmonar]

+1

[sarmed1]

We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

Very easy.  The web site pretty much takes you thru step by step.  Register as a training institute; wait for approval, I see that now it says it requires you to buy 1 teaching package (thats new) the next step is having  your folks get set up as instructors; it is easiest if someone has some kind of teaching certification from another organization (medical ones are best ie AHA, ARC, NSC....I dont know if "CAP" creds will get you all the way thru..... if they dont they have to go thru an instructor development course (which once you have one instructor they can run that course for any other prospective instructors) I would have to check with my TC guy but I think they are the approval for all future instructor receprocities for their TC...rather than ECI (so if you are comfortable with CAP as thier only teaching experience its up to you to say yay or nay)

after that you set the course up online, submit the paprer work and issue cards...ECSI makes thier money vai the sales of the course items via Jones and Bartlet pulishing

mk

[CAP4117]

Other organizations can be just as guilty of pencil-whipping people, too. The outside first aid class that I took recently was a complete waste of time. No hands-on skills, no test - and we all received an AHA first aid card at the end. If I wasn't in EMT training right now, I would feel the need to take it over again somewhere else just to learn the skills needed for GTM. At least if it's done internally we have a little control over it.

[Eclipse]

A perfect example of the problem--- it seems to me that a lot of the first aid training given to CAP members is by CAP members who are also certified by some other organization.  Now, some claim that if a CAP member were teaching first aid tasks as part of the CAP ES program that they would be more likely to pencil whip their students through.  Just what is stopping these dual-hatted CAP members from doing it now? 

Well, for starters there's integrity.

But beyond that, they also risk their personal certification with the sanctioning body they work for, not to mention the liability of a death caused by the whipping of a first aid card.

As a motorcycle safety instructor, I am perfectly capable and competent to teach my next door neighbor, friends, or family how to ride, however the
program specifically prohibits me from doing that, and I'm not about to risk my certification and my house for the convenience of someone who can't be bothered to do things the right way.

[lordmonar]

And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

[Eclipse]

And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

I don't think anyone said we couldn't, the issue being that NHQ (and likely the legal directorate), is not interested in creating and maintaining
an internal curriculum when it is simple for people to get this training externally.

We could, theoretically train pilots, too, (we do it with cadets, now), but it's just not something CAP needs to bother with.

[RADIOMAN015]

And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

I don't think anyone said we couldn't, the issue being that NHQ (and likely the legal directorate), is not interested in creating and maintaining
an internal curriculum when it is simple for people to get this training externally.

We could, theoretically train pilots, too, (we do it with cadets, now), but it's just not something CAP needs to bother with.

Hey if our members know how to read perhaps they could just carry this "The Pocket First Aid Field Guide" ($9.95 at Cabelas).
  OR try this: "First Aid Pocket Guide"
http://catalog.blr.com/product.cfm/product/20300600 $4.74 each if 10-24 are bought, higher quantities get additional discounts.

OR even the American Red Cross Pocket Guide for $2.95
http://www.redcrossstore.org/Shopper/Product.aspx?UniqueItemId=514&ViewSource=Category

RM

[RiverAux]

But beyond that, they also risk their personal certification with the sanctioning body they work for, not to mention the liability of a death caused by the whipping of a first aid card.

Wouldn't the same be true if they taught direct pressure as a CAP instructor? 

Keep in mind that CAP is going to be on the hook if a CAP member really messes up basic first aid whether they were certified by the Red Cross or CAP since they would be doing it as a CAP member anyway. 

If anything, I'd think CAP would be better able to protect itself by making sure that the skills are taught by CAP members. 

[Eclipse]

I pinged the KB and asked whether First Aid expires, the answer came from John Desmaris

"Members are expected to stay current when first aid training is required, but currently ops quals does not enforce that.  We expect that will be addressed in future revisions to Ops Quals."

[Ed Bos]

Is that not posted on the KB yet?

[Eclipse]

Is that not posted on the KB yet?

I don't know that it will be - it was a direct question, which was then referred to and answered by John.  Do those get posted?

It doesn't have a KB ID, but that's the direct quote from the response.

[Ed Bos]

I presume those are what get eventually posted, but that answers my question. Thanks.

[RiverAux]

I've asked 3 or 4 questions of the KB in the past, none of which had existing answers, and they never posted their responses to the KB.  Figured if they take the time to write it they would take the time to post it. 

[medicmike]

I am an AHA CPR and First Aid instructor.  I am also an EMS instructor and we have a state certified training academy where I work.  Since we have the training academy, I am able to provide CPR and First Aid courses for about $5 per person (the cost of the cards).  I am able to use our facility and our equipment and I don't charge for my time so it helps out my squadron and is very inexpensive for our people.  Works out well for us.