First Aid/CPR Certification Requirement for ES (specific)

[Jagger3939]

I have a question that might not be simple to answer.
I am a Basic Life Support (BLS) Instructor with the American Heart Association.
I have taught normal certification courses that my Training Center issues certification cards.
However, we have a program called Family & Friends - which is an express course, and it is almost 80% cheaper to teach (which makes it that much more cheaper for the students).
However, they don't receive an AHA Certification card - instead they receive a Course Completion card that comes with their textbook. This isn't a certification, just completion certificate/card.
What are the regulations - specifically, for cadets or seniors to do ES, do they have to be "certified" or do they just need proof they took a class?

[lordmonar]

IIRC....the requirment is to get training in first aid....not to be certified.

So....yes that course could count.

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1309/kw/ground%20team%20first%20aid/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyODIxNTg0Ni9zaWQvT2h5YVVJUGs%3D

Here is the link to KB.

[Eclipse]

This depends on your wing, and make sure you ask the question directly before you invest effort in something you have to redo.

Most require an outside instructor to provide a class which then issues cards with an expiration date.
This generally precludes the "my mom's a nurse and showed me stuff..." training, however it does not
prohibit CAP members who are also instructors from providing training, as long as that training is done
in accordance with the members' outside sanctioning organization.

See 60-3, Page 17:
f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care.  CAP is not an emergency medical care or
paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such.  CAP will not be the primary
provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be
used to support such activities.  The only type of medical aid that should be administered by
CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed
necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering.  This treatment must be executed by a person
qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level.  When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at  http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02,
Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings.
CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any
care provided is at the members own risk.  Though medical supplies and equipment are not
normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions
may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided.

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.

In terms of deciding whether or not your class meets the 60-3 standard, I would look at whether or not the course meets OSHA requirements for workplace education. For example, the ARC certifying classes do, but our non-certifying classes (like hands-only CPR) do not meet OSHA requirements. AHA should be able to provide more information on whether or not the class you want to teach meets that requirement (my guess is no).

Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

[Walkman]

What about the requirement to have a card as part of the GTM3 24 hour pack?

a. 24 hour pack
    1) On your person:
        a) Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap. The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs.(T)
        b) Notepad and pencil (T)
        c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

That part always confused me. We don't necessarily need a course that issues a card, but we're required to have a card with our gear.

[Eclipse]

We don't necessarily need a course that issues a card, but we're required to have a card with our gear.

That's mostly another place the text doesn't match the program reality.  A lot of wing's don't issue ROA's, and most everything
on that list is verifiable online in anything but Armageddon.   I carry a pack of cards that's about 3/8' thick, but mostly because
I have no place else to keep them.

It's also somewhat circular - you will be hard-pressed for anyone who can / will provide the training at the required level that does not issue a card.
In many cases this is because the organization that trained and certified the instructor prohibits the use of their materials outside of
a sanctioned class.

The reason most wings require a card is to keep them out of the business of having to decide on an individual basis whether or not
a given curriculum meets the requirement.  it also keeps members out of the business of medical training.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM 

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

Oh -- my error it was an American Heart Association instructor we had for the classes we attend at the squadron not the ARC.  In fact I had called the local chapter (ARC) and asked that as a non profit organization whether we could get a discount for our unpaid volunteers. Never got a answer back from them after two phone calls.   Personally, I can't get excited about the local chapter and have NO interest as a CAP member in assisting them whatsoever

RM   

[Spaceman3750]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.


Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

So my question would be why do you have to charge the members anything for this class.  I know we've had an AHA instructor give us a first aid & CPR training courses, and we didn't pay anything.  Maybe the squadron gave him some payment for gas etc but we definitely didn't pay for each individual.
RM

Because the ARC charges me a course record fee of $7 per student. Training first aid kits cost me $3 per student (=$10). This is using the reference cards I can print myself. Add $3 to use a cardstock card (one or the other is required). I simply do not have the money (and neither does my squadron) to eat that cost x 15 students.

In July, that breakdown will change (I'm actually on a temporary agreement to keep my prices what they are now). ARC will start charging me $19 per student. Kits will continue to be $3 each. That's $22. I suspect to make it an even $25 (way easier than an oddball number) I will start using cardstock reference cards. Or I will purchase the kits in bulk (not an attractive option for me), which will get the cost to $20 per person.

By the way, this is for First Aid. If you want CPR, the price goes up because then I have to rent mannequins and AEDs.

I don't make any money on my classes, and I make that very clear at the start of every class when I tell the students where their money is going. They're usually pretty grateful for whatever price they can get, since if you call your local ARC chapter they want $70 for the exact same class.

Oh -- my error it was an American Heart Association instructor we had for the classes we attend at the squadron not the ARC.  In fact I had called the local chapter (ARC) and asked that as a non profit organization whether we could get a discount for our unpaid volunteers. Never got a answer back from them after two phone calls.   Personally, I can't get excited about the local chapter and have NO interest as a CAP member in assisting them whatsoever
RM
RM

How recently did you call? ARC underwent a restructuring in health & safety services last year that centralized training under several regional training centers (TC) who handle all scheduling and sales for classes. The chapters don't handle that any more - even as an instructor I have a hard time speaking with anyone local about classes.

They still don't give discounts though. Your best bet is to link up directly with an instructor who has an Authorized Provider (AP) agreement.

[Eclipse]

In most cases, instructors from the various organizations are prohibited from giving free classes, and required to provide the materials, etc., so there is a built-in base cost before an instructor who might charge for his time. AHA, ARC, etc., may be "non-profit", but that doesn't mean they do things for "free",
and curriculum development, training aid production, liability insurance and other program costs have to be supported by the student fees.

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

[Spaceman3750]

In most cases, instructors from the various organizations are prohibited from giving free classes, and required to provide the materials, etc., so there is a built-in base cost before an instructor who might charge for his time. AHA, ARC, etc., may be "non-profit", but that doesn't mean they do things for "free",
and curriculum development, training aid production, liability insurance and other program costs have to be supported by the student fees.

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

Exactly - the orgs I've seen and worked with have very well-developed curriculum that costs a lot of money. Plus the infrastructure to support instructors is pretty costly as well.

There's no way to get around the money issue with my org - when I put the record into the computer it won't let me print cards until I pony up, plain and simple. Either I'm collecting money from students and paying with that or I'm paying out of pocket.

[lordmonar]

Instructors who give the class away for free are likely violating their instructor agreements, the copyright of the program's materials, and are defeating the purpose of having an outside organization perform the training, since the sanctioning organization would likely disavow the certifications and training.

In the case of ARC...they are violating their instructor agreement.
I used to be an ARC Instructor Trainer (that is I taught people how to be ARC instructors).

Now it is possible to give the instruction....with out charging.....but you cannot issue cards with out it and that may not even be allowed anymore.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am an ARC instructor and routinely teach FA classes for CAP.

In terms of deciding whether or not your class meets the 60-3 standard, I would look at whether or not the course meets OSHA requirements for workplace education. For example, the ARC certifying classes do, but our non-certifying classes (like hands-only CPR) do not meet OSHA requirements. AHA should be able to provide more information on whether or not the class you want to teach meets that requirement (my guess is no).

Why are you trying to teach AHA BLS to CAP? Why not teach AHA Heart Saver First Aid? Out of curiosity, what does the regular certifying class you teach cost? Right now I'm able to teach ARC Standard First Aid for $10/head but that will go to $25/head in July.

Interestingly the local American Red Cross website shows CPR for $70/90 and First Aid $70/$90.  So it would appear that there's "profit" in there for "someone" isn't there   (BTW I have no issue with training be charged for paid employees that require this and their employer is footing the bill OR they need it to maintain employment  -- it really has to do with giving a "break" to the unpaid volunteers).

One would think that the leadership in CAP would be working on the best cost effective method for the membership to get this training (since it is required in a regulation), perhaps even approaching the ARC & AHA for potential discounts    (Perhaps another option is for the military to provide this training).
RM   

[lordmonar]

Pesonally.....I would just steal the BSA's First Aid Merit Badge book and go with that.

We could conduct our own training and just record it in E-services.
Require recertification every couple of years (which is not required at this time).

Easy, Pleasey.

[Eclipse]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

[lordmonar]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

[Spaceman3750]

Pesonally.....I would just steal the BSA's First Aid Merit Badge book and go with that.

We could conduct our own training and just record it in E-services.
Require recertification every couple of years (which is not required at this time).

Easy, Pleasey.

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

Let's let the outside orgs keep doing their job so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. This is one case where I don't like "easy peasy" because you end up with crap.

On a different note, eventually I'm going to bridge into teaching ARC Wilderness/Remote First Aid. That seems to be a good course and would be beneficial to our ground teams (and since the scope is limited to emergencies, Eclipse doesn't have to burst a blood vessel).

[Eclipse]

Recert isn't specifically required by CAP, but the card-issuers expire them every 2-3, so that takes care of itself.

Yes....but I don't have to maintain my certification to keep my GT rateing.

Yes, you should - an expired qualification is worthless.

[RogueLeader]

Except when the standards change, then you have to pay to redevelop the curriculum. Outside organizations have entire business units (and sometimes that's all the entire company does, like with ECSI) dedicated to developing and updating good, solid curriculum and train the trainer programs. CAP doesn't have such a stellar track record of that (see: ICUT, most of the AFAIDL courses, etc).

AFAIDL is run by the AF, not CAP.