What can I do in CAP Comms?

[cap235629]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

[N Harmon]

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).

I agree 100%. Except for those dedicated members who conduct regular nets, and monitor radios throughout the day, stations should be located at CAP facilities.

And this is why I always shudder when I hear the words "OH! You're a ham, you should get involved in CAP communications"; because too many times that ends with the member frustrated just as our OP here has become.

Now, you want to know what you can do in CAP Comms without having a radio personally assigned to you? How about you start by getting fully qualified in CAP communications -- ACUT and CUL? Then work on putting together a station at your squadron HQ. Even if you do not have a radio, get everything else you would need. Antenna. Emergency power system. First aid kit, blanket, rope. Blank forms. Headsets. Furniture.

Seriously, if someone handed you a programmed EF Johnson in the box today, how many weeks or months would you be away from having a fully compliant radio station? So do the work now. And in the mean time start attending group and wing communications meetings (oh, your group or wing doesn't hold communications meetings? contact the group or wing DC and tell him/her you would like to plan one). Attend SAREXs, and work in communications. Get a feel for what works and doesn't work. Join the CAP communications group on Yahoo groups.

Do this, and I find it hard to believe your unit won't be issued a radio. Many wings issue out equipment only to have it returned, still new in the box, when a new codeplug comes out and reprogramming is mandated. If your wing sees your unit has a station, but no radio...well they just might find a reason to transfer an idle radio to you.

[cap235629]

speaking of code plugs, the new one is out. 

LET THE REPROGRAMMING GAMES BEGIN!

[Eclipse]

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

I can't begin to imagine why, but I know we are all curious as to this story.

[MilesDyson]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground. And no, it does not make sense to try and do this through ATC. I needed someone to be monitoring the CAP radio. Restricting the number of radios to only those issued by CAP cuts down the number of people who are able to monitor our channels. Insisting that the radios be installed at a squadron base further reduces the number of people who are on frequency monitoring.

And by the way, I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me. ALWAYS ON. And I ALWAYS have 121.5 on. ALWAYS.

[cap235629]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground. And no, it does not make sense to try and do this through ATC. I needed someone to be monitoring the CAP radio. Restricting the number of radios to only those issued by CAP cuts down the number of people who are able to monitor our channels. Insisting that the radios be installed at a squadron base further reduces the number of people who are on frequency monitoring.

And by the way, I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me. ALWAYS ON. And I ALWAYS have 121.5 on. ALWAYS.

The next step was to go on about your business.  What you did was self deploy.

[Eclipse]

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground.

No.  It's not.

If you were on a mission, and/or in a CAP plane, you would have had a CAP radio, and this is a non-issue.

If you were flying in your capacity as a private pilot, member or not, your work is done once you make the report.  From there CAP is not involved
in any way whatsoever until and unless the AFRCC generate a mission.  We do not self-deploy, nor do are members start prosecuting searches
just because they think they hear something.

I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me.

No one on the ground needs you.  Life is not a constant emergency, and we have professional resources and organizational processes for dealing with "emergencies".

[coudano]

seriously... as long as CAP has its head buried in the "communications equals radios" sand,
we are going to continue to not get it.

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

[N Harmon]

Even if he was in a CAP aircraft with a radio, I think he is saying nobody on the ground has equipment.

Even still, what would you have expected a CAP member on the ground to do? ATC has a faster wire to AFRCC than most of us would. No CAP member below wing commander has the authority to tell you to break off and begin an ELT search, and I doubt many wing commanders would open a 911T mission upon only hearing an ELT.

[Eclipse]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is a somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

[cap235629]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

We work with what we have. I hope that this experience you speak of will be the catalyst to developing some kind of "Computer Aided Dispatch" system for CAP.

It is desperately needed.

[Eclipse]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

We work with what we have. I hope that this experience you speak of will be the catalyst to developing some kind of "Computer Aided Dispatch" system for CAP.

It is desperately needed.

I do too, if not in form, at least in function and direction.  Anecdotal comments from the SC+ level of the eval were that people above and outside were watching what and how were doing towards broader implementation.

One can hope.

[wuzafuzz]

Hmmpff.

...But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

That is NOT what people here told you.  We are restricted to using equipment that is authorized, but it does not have to be government issued.  Plenty of CAP members use personally owned radios.  Of course those radios are commercial products, not amateur, gear.  I use a personally owned radio in addition to CAP owned radios.  You are good to go as long as the radio is on the approved list, you license it with your wing, and can program it.  I use my member owned radio for CAP and 2 meter ham.   What you cannot do is roll in with any piece of gear you want and fire it up on federal frequencies.  That is a restriction imposed by the Feds, not by CAP.  MARS is in the same boat and they are almost all hams.

There is no need to think that hams aren't welcome in CAP Comm.  Most of the CAP communicators I know are hams.  As long as you understand that CAP Comm is NOT the amateur radio service you can participate and enjoy it.  Before bashing CAP Comms take a look at ALL the other radio services.  Even GMRS, CB, MURS. etc.  No amateur gear allowed.  Police officers can't use ham radios, firefighters can't use ham radios, EMS, businesses, etc.  The support hams provide to some of those groups is different than those groups using amateur radio themselves.  Incidentally, if you read CAPR 100-1 you will see that CAP can solicit third-party assistance from amateur radio groups.  Just like everyone else.

There is plenty to do in CAP Communications and your skill set would be a welcome addition to most squadrons. 

[MilesDyson]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

[cap235629]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

[SarDragon]

Hmmpff.

I mean really, if you want to establish a known reliable system by distributing corporate radios, fine. But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? And please don't tell me my equipment is not state of the art - I run a software defined radio which has a GPS disciplined oscillator. I can handle any data mode, digital voice, whatever. Exceeds any NTIA standards. 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

Yuck!

Nobody ever said that. Ever. The radios used by CAP members, on CAP missions, must meet the requirements set down by the NTIA. Most of the available radios are CAP-owned. However, if you want to go out and buy your own, NTIA-compliant radio, go for it. Get it into the CAP system, and you're good to go.

You say your radio meets/exceeds NTIA standards. Is it on this list? If not, have you contacted NTC to see if it can be approved?

The biggest hindrance to member owned radios is the expense. Many folks just don't have the funds to buy them.

[wuzafuzz]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

Private pilot in a private plane?  Do your thing.  You just aren't doing it under the auspices of CAP or with CAP equipment. 

When you joined CAP you agreed to follow CAP's rules.  Just sayin'.

[Eclipse]

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

+1 - he still hasn't answered the question about how long he's been in.
MY guess is that response will be "Why is that relevant?"

The other twist to this is "Where did the CAP radio come from that he's using in the plane?"  Having that doesn't really jive with not being able to
get equipment (issued or member-owned).

I have really nice, compliant radio that I personally own.  It was $175 with 4 batteries, a desktop charger, and 2 antennas. Personal HF-1000's are a dime a dozen around my area.

[N Harmon]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

You do what you want as long as you're not breaking any airspace or TFR rules, not using a "rescue" callsign, and not telling ATC you're Civil Air Patrol. Just realize that you're doing so on your own, and not as a CAP member.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why?

Because CAP aircraft are for official business only, and until a mission is assigned to CAP, the hunting of that ELT is not official business, and you have no business hunting down ELTs with an aircraft that isn't yours (you don't own that plane, the taxpayers do...yada yada). No further reason should be needed.

The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

Agreed. At least not without a check on the attitude.

[CAP4117]

Self-deploying can cause major problems with resources and safety. I actually just took FEMA's ICS-100 last night and they gave the example of private ambulance companies self-deploying on 9/11 and blocking officially deployed ambulances from getting through, just making the whole situation worse.