First Aid Card

[SARDOC]

This is not about the medical ability or training, per se, it is about being qualified to be there at all, and the SQTR's say you have to be trained and current in basic first aid.  The way CAP substantiates that is through outside organizations who provide the training and accept the risk.

Agreed...the SQTR does state they must be trained.  But with no Definition of what Basic First Aid is, It could be open to interpretation because their are absolutely no references to it in either the CAPR or in the referenced documents.  Also their is nothing that defines "Currency"  One agency provides certifications for two years...another for three and another for five years.  There are no standards to identify currency or an adequate refresher period.

Liability?  You think an incorrectly treated person isn't going to sue CAP and the organization that provided the training?  Properly credentialed and
trained, CAP, Inc., can potentially remove itself from a lawsuit on the grounds that you state - we don't provide medical training, but instead send our
people to "x", so it's "X's" fault if the band-aids were put on upside down, etc.

If we provide in-house, non-certified training, it's all on CAP, Inc.

When an incorrectly treated person sues..they are going to sue everybody, when CAP inc...gets involved they will point to the reg stating the member was trained IAW referenced standards and that any care provided is the responsibility of the member.  If I get called as the instructor, I bring copy of my class syllabus, course roster of attendance and copy of the standard that my course was taught to.  If the member deviated from the instruction at all it's their responsibility because as an instructor I can not be held responsible for the actions of the member...when it gets to the individual member as long as the care they provided was in "good faith" they are protected by the Good Sam law.  Malpractice cases are almost impossible to prove anyway they must prove three elements  1. Duty to Act (we are not a First Response agency so this doesn't apply to us) 2. Member failed to perform to the accepted standard (we don't have one defined)  3. That the Action of the member was the direct cause of harm to the patient (very hard to do that at the first aid level unless the member practices beyond their scope)   Also the First Aid standard doesn't even teach the application of adhesive bandages so if one get applied incorrectly it's not an instruction issue and I doubt that would result in direct harm to the patient.

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

You're reading that with a filter to skew it to your argument.

CAP, Inc., does not endorse a specific organization, there are a number you can choose, but you have to choose one.  The ultimate decision is not
yours or even John's, it is up to your Wing CC (and by delegation, likely the Wing's ESO or Ops Dir) to decide if they will accept the training
provided.  Rare is the wing which will allow non-certified training, and non-existent is a wing that won't accept it.

Bottom line, it's their call, and you will likely be wasting your member's time to save a few bucks when the ratings are denied.

And seriously, to what end?  $13.00?  Just buy the books, give them cards and move on. Your member's time worth a lot more than $13.00, and whatever goodwill you think yo are going to engender by saving them the cost of a few cups of coffee is going to go right out the window when they
find out they have to retake the First Aid class to get those badges.

Sorry...I did kinda Cherry pick that statement primarily because it stated they don't require a specific certificate.

Please cite where I have to have a certifying agency or even a regulation that requires GTM's to be in possession of a First Aid Card.  My Wing must be one of those rare one's because my wing ESO got approval from the CC for me to teach First Aid and I was given the option of using a canned program or creating my own as long as it met the standards referenced in CAPR 60-3.  My intention is to meet the requirements set forth in the regulations not some artificial perceived standard because that's the way your wing does it.  I am using a canned program...just not issuing a card.  Your state may also require certification to be covered by Good Sam...My state does not.

I do appreciate your enthusiasm and your opinion and don't mean to be argumentative but we will have to agree to disagree.

[BillB]

I completed the First Responder Course offered through my local Community College. It's I beleieve a 42 hour course way above the ARC first Aid Course. At the end you are a Certified First Responder. They issue a certificate, not a card. How would CAP handle that? Make me go back through a first aid course which covers less than half of what the First Responder includes?

[Eclipse]

I completed the First Responder Course offered through my local Community College. It's I beleieve a 42 hour course way above the ARC first Aid Course. At the end you are a Certified First Responder. They issue a certificate, not a card. How would CAP handle that? Make me go back through a first aid course which covers less than half of what the First Responder includes?

Make a copy of the cert and fold it into your ID carrier or wallet?

[BillB]

Eclipse see next post my computer posted before anything was typed

[BillB]

Eclipse
That doesn't answer the question. Since the regulation says "first aid" card, does Certified First Responder, or even EMT or Paramedic count. I doubt the average GBD or IC would accept anything except a First Aid card. If the regulations said First Aid card or higher, it would count, but it doesn't say that. It requires a First Aid Card.

[JayT]

It's it just a better idea to issue the cards so that cadets can use them outside of CAP?

[Eclipse]

Eclipse
That doesn't answer the question. Since the regulation says "first aid" card, does Certified First Responder, or even EMT or Paramedic count. I doubt the average GBD or IC would accept anything except a First Aid card. If the regulations said First Aid card or higher, it would count, but it doesn't say that. It requires a First Aid Card.

O-0001  PREPARE GROUND TEAM INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.  Items required of trainees are marked with a "T." 
You may carry additional equipment subject to team leader approval and your ability to secure and carry it --
remember, you may have to walk a long way carrying it all.   
a.  24 hour pack
  1)  On your person:
      a)  Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap.  The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat
or bright colored cap based on mission needs.(T)
   b)  Notepad and pencil (T)
   c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

As to the specifics of which training is acceptable, that is up to your wing's ESO.  None in their right mind is going to say "no" to FR, or a Paramedic license. 

But to those who say the "regs" don't require it, see above, and I am not interested in another "M" vs "R" argument.

[RRLE]

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.
.
.
.
c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

A First Aid card is the minimum required. It is not the only thing that meets the requirement. Commonsense and plain English make it obvious that any 'card' above the minimum also meets the requirement.

[SARDOC]

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.
.
.
.
c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

A First Aid card is the minimum required. It is not the only thing that meets the requirement. Commonsense and plain English make it obvious that any 'card' above the minimum also meets the requirement.

The Ultimate question is do those Task Guides Referenced above have the force of Regulation???

That same Statement says that a 76 Card is required in addition to a First Aid Card but CAPR 100-1 says that that Wings no longer even need  to issue a 76 card...which my wing does not.  So according to your common sense every GTM in my wing is unqualified because they don't even get issued a 76 card.

I'm thinking the Task Guide is exactly that "a Guide" to help people in the right direction but that Regulation supersedes (overrules) Task guides.  This is one of those examples where regulations conflict

[RiverAux]

Seeing as how the regulations specifically require the use of the SQTRs to become and stay qualified and seeing as how the SQTRS are linked to the task guides there is no actual difference between them and the regulation.  Unless you know of a way for me to become GTM qualified without meeting all the SQTR requirements which are based on the task guide. 

[SARDOC]

Seeing as how the regulations specifically require the use of the SQTRs to become and stay qualified and seeing as how the SQTRS are linked to the task guides there is no actual difference between them and the regulation.  Unless you know of a way for me to become GTM qualified without meeting all the SQTR requirements which are based on the task guide.

But Which takes precedence when they conflict?   

[SARDOC]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then?

Not Sure but CAPR 60-3 states "Most formal courses do not have to be re-accomplished though some are recommended like first aid training."

[RiverAux]

I don't see where there is any conflict in this case.  So long as you have some sort of proof of taking a First Aid course (or something more comprehensive) then that meets the requirement even if it isn't a "card". 

And if there is a conflict between any regulations (which happens), report it to your chain of command and let them decide how to address it and hopefully they will push it up the line to the people who can actually resolve the conflict by revising the regulations.

[SARDOC]

I don't see where there is any conflict in this case.  So long as you have some sort of proof of taking a First Aid course (or something more comprehensive) then that meets the requirement even if it isn't a "card". 

And if there is a conflict between any regulations (which happens), report it to your chain of command and let them decide how to address it and hopefully they will push it up the line to the people who can actually resolve the conflict by revising the regulations.

Thanks...That was my ultimate point is that documentation of training is sufficient not that they have to have a "certification card" from some third party organization with the way the regulations are currently written.

I am drafting a request to my CC to update CAPR 60-3 to clarify the first aid training requirement to require certification because I think all will be served better in the long run.  Also it should have an Appendix to what are acceptable First Aid equivalents right now it's arbitrary to the approving authority and talk about opening yourself up to liability. 

Thanks for the input.

[RADIOMAN015]

Ideally, I think it is a good idea to get a trained professional to present the first aid/cpr classes to the membership.  HOWEVER, as soon as you start to say that it has to be American Red Cross, American Heart Association, or specific other organizations, you are limiting what a local unit, (many that are living on a shoe string budget) can put together.  I know the AF has a self aid & buddy care first aid training  see:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFH36-2218V2.pdf for the student workbook, which perhaps those on an AF type base might be able to get an instructor for.   Also sometimes the base fire department might give some training.
Perhaps even Army National Guard/Reserve units also have the same type of training.
RM

[sarmed1]

I have used the self aid and buddy care course to meet the first aid objective in the past.  The only stumbling block is that a portion of the course is online.  The referenced AFH is no longer the current training program.  I believe there is a provision for direct instruction, even as a SABC instructor I am not sure (these things seem to change on a monthly basis for the AF...)

In a perfect world (especially for those that are on or near and AF/ANG base) you may even be able to get your HSO's trained as SABC instructors, and can then teach to your unit whenever you need, including refreshers.  Either way coordination with your state director or local CAP-RAP personel would be needed to make it happen. (obviously barring a in CAP unit member with the right contacts/connections)

mk

[CadetProgramGuy]

Its all based on level of care.  IMO and in my workplace, (i got the rolled eyes for this...)  If you have a higher level of training than first aid, such as FR, EMT, or Paramedic, you will not have to produce a first aid card.  First aid is covered in these courses.

Hence......I am a Paramedic, would I really benefit from a First aid course?  Probably not because every 2 years i am required to attend 70+ hours of classes in areas of Medical emergencies, Trauma Emergencies, and a host of other topics to include bleeding and shock management.

And I am pretty sure I know how to apply a bandaid.

Cheers!!

CPG