CAP JAG?

[Maj Ballard]

I just discovered an individual on LinkedIn who is presenting himself as the "[blank blank]Wing Judge Advocate" in CAP. This struck me as a bit odd as, to my knowledge, we have no Judge Advocate General's Corps in Civil Air Patrol. Is it not enough to just be the Wing Legal Officer? Am I reading too much into this?

[lordmonar]

We have wing legal officers...which could be called JAGs I guess.

[MIKE]

Using JA as the functional address symbol too IIRC.

[Maj Ballard]

I dunno... I just always associate Judge Advocates with the actual real military. Just seems a little pretentious and wannabe to me. 

*shrug* YMMV.

[RiverAux]

I think at the recent NEC they approved some sort of generic name describing all lawyers in CAP.  I don't quite remember what it was...

[Pylon]

I think at the recent NEC they approved some sort of generic name describing all lawyers in CAP.  I don't quite remember what it was...

Yeah I was looking for minutes or some document to the same effect... I remember some actions related to lawyers in CAP, terminology and structure, etc.   Hmm...

[DNall]

I dunno... I just always associate Judge Advocates with the actual real military. Just seems a little pretentious and wannabe to me. 

*shrug* YMMV.

You mean like Capt, Maj, unit/CC, etc... we are formulated on the military model using standardized office symbols, in part so the military we deal with can recognize and understand what the hell we're talking about. This is a paramilitary organization, not the boy scouts.

[Maj Ballard]

I dunno. Like I said, just struck me as odd. I don't see what's wrong with "Legal Officer."

[lordmonar]

I dunno. Like I said, just struck me as odd. I don't see what's wrong with "Legal Officer."

Nothing wrong with JAG either.

[afgeo4]

There is something wrong with "JAG".

We don't have a Judge Advocate General in CAP and we don't have a JAG Corps in CAP.

Just because you're a legal officer, doesn't mean you're JAG. That's a specific term that applies to members of the Judge Advocate General Corps of the US Military. They are specifically military lawyers.

It's about as valid as a CAP medical officer calling himself the CAP Surgeon General.

[winterg]

A quick search turned this up: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/capusaf/jag.asp

[afgeo4]

A quick search turned this up: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/capusaf/jag.asp

Except that CAP-USAF is Air Force, so naturally, they have JAG officers.

[lordmonar]

There is something wrong with "JAG".

We don't have a Judge Advocate General in CAP and we don't have a JAG Corps in CAP.

Just because you're a legal officer, doesn't mean you're JAG. That's a specific term that applies to members of the Judge Advocate General Corps of the US Military. They are specifically military lawyers.

It's about as valid as a CAP medical officer calling himself the CAP Surgeon General.

Seems like we got one now.

[DNall]

The office symbol is "XXXX/JA," not JAG

Individual attorneys in the military are Judge Advocates (JAs), not JAGs. There is only one JAG in each service - THE Jundge Advocate General, who is a general.

Legal officer is a term from the business world - corporate board of directors - which is inappropriate for CAP because that person is not THE legal officer on the CAP, inc Board of Directors. That would be the legal adviser to the BoG, or I guess the national legal officer could be known as that specifically in their advisory to the NB/NEC role, but not in their daily duties. Legal Officer also would not specify membership in CAP.

It is appropriate for CAP to use JA for a couple reasons: First, it specifies they are in fact a member/officer; that they are in a staff position or otherwise actively acting as an authorized legal adviser/advocate for CAP; and, it is something the AF &/or other branches we interact with (National Guard for instance) actually understand.

[FlexCoder]

It would be a nice if CAP upgraded to a JAG type of a system.   However, the National Appeals Board was a good addition though.   Wing Legal Officers are not enough and many are biased towards their Wing.   

In addition to the Cadet Protection for a new new member, it would be ideal to have an overview of how CAP IG system works, some case studies & what procedures a member should take.   From the start, it would prevent a lot of petty circumstances from going overboard and the member more accountable for his or her actions.  Dream on....

[DNall]

A Judge Advocate is NOT the same thing as an IG. They are not supposed to be. It's completely 100% different systems with completely different purposes that in no way over lap.

[Flying Pig]

Update to a JAG system?   You were never in the military were you? 

[Maj Ballard]

Here is the recent 28 Aug ICL regarding Legal Officers in CAP. (It still uses that language - not JA.)

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_08_28_Legal_Officer_Reporting_Indemnity.pdf

Notice "Judge Advocate" is nowhere in the list of example alternate titles for the position. (I realize that examples, by definition, are not exhaustive.) Apparently NHQ doesn't think "Legal Officer" is inappropriate for the Wing and other unit levels of CAP.

[DNall]

NHQ is rarely on the same page with the real world in general or AF in particular. I'm not saying this guy is right to use JA. 20-1 I believe it is specifies office symbols & titles. That's what he should be using. That said, it's not the right policy and should be changed.

[FlexCoder]

Mr. Pig,

Why would we want to copy the 'Army'!  I thought JAG was a TV Show.   

[DNall]

Mr. Pig,

Why would we want to copy the 'Army'!  I thought JAG was a TV Show.  

What? Each service has a judge advocate general, and all the attorneys are either judge advocates or military judges. Same in every branch of service.

[winterg]

We should make a mock TV show about CAP JAG!  Who's in? 

[notaNCO forever]

 I'll be willing to play the "bad guy" I'll steal all the donuts. 

[jeders]

We should make a mock TV show about CAP JAG!  Who's in? 

I call being the guy that gets the hot girl 

I'll be willing to play the "bad guy" I'll steal all the donuts. 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Those poor doughnuts never had a chance.

[winterg]

I get to be the guy that is a GBD, ABD, MP and any other alphabet soup I can think of and go on all the cool missions!

[flyerthom]

I got Sound Track!

Jeder's theme music will be Every girl's crazy 'bout a Mess Dress man 

The teaser for NCO Forever will be "Time to steal the dougnuts"

Winterg's theme Highway to the FBO

[davedove]

We should make a mock TV show about CAP JAG!  Who's in? 

I call being the guy that gets the hot girl 

Hey, if they manage to get Catherine Bell to play the female lead, I'll take any part they want to give me.

[SM-MADDOG]

Just depends on what terms the CAP Board came up with. If they approved JAG then fine they can use the term JAG or what ever it is. What about a term Officer, yet a Military Officer is  not a sworn Law Enforcement Officer or Agent. But yet they use the term Officer as do some banks "Loan Officer". 

There is something wrong with "JAG".

We don't have a Judge Advocate General in CAP and we don't have a JAG Corps in CAP.

Just because you're a legal officer, doesn't mean you're JAG. That's a specific term that applies to members of the Judge Advocate General Corps of the US Military. They are specifically military lawyers.

It's about as valid as a CAP medical officer calling himself the CAP Surgeon General.

[Hawk200]

Just depends on what terms the CAP Board came up with. If they approved JAG then fine they can use the term JAG or what ever it is. What about a term Officer, yet a Military Officer is  not a sworn Law Enforcement Officer or Agent. But yet they use the term Officer as do some banks "Loan Officer". 

There is something wrong with "JAG".

We don't have a Judge Advocate General in CAP and we don't have a JAG Corps in CAP.

Just because you're a legal officer, doesn't mean you're JAG. That's a specific term that applies to members of the Judge Advocate General Corps of the US Military. They are specifically military lawyers.

It's about as valid as a CAP medical officer calling himself the CAP Surgeon General.

The term "officer" has multiple meanings. Per Merriam-Webster:

1 aobsolete : agent b: one charged with police duties
2: one who holds an office of trust, authority, or command <the officers of the bank> <chief executive officer>
3 a: one who holds a position of authority or command in the armed forces ; specifically : commissioned officer b: the master or any of the mates of a merchant or passenger ship

The term is appropriate for a paramilitary organization. The term "JAG" is not appropriate to CAP, as we have no such position or officer in CAP. Those using it are wrong to do so. And as has been pointed out, CAP has not "approved" it.

[SM-MADDOG]

I agree I dont care for a term JAG, but what ever if the National Staff says its JAG then its JAG, You know how they change stuff over night lol. But what im saying is that term Officer, remember our last General said that a Member with rank of SM could tell people they were an Officer which they are because Cadet Ranks then SM is above all Cadets by Grade. Yet if You told someone Im an Officer they would probably think something different, but thats what I ment by terms. Im not an SM anymore though so I kinda wish they would change the rank term for that. Im a 2nd Lt not, My squadron commander does not promote people to 2Lt after 6 months He waits a while and wants people to earn more. I got 2Lt 3 weeks ago.

Now here is an idea question. What rank/term should a SM be. I think they should change it. Maybe Make getting promoted to 2Lt after a yr. And when You first join You would be SM for so long then another rank before 2Lt.

Just depends on what terms the CAP Board came up with. If they approved JAG then fine they can use the term JAG or what ever it is. What about a term Officer, yet a Military Officer is  not a sworn Law Enforcement Officer or Agent. But yet they use the term Officer as do some banks "Loan Officer". 

There is something wrong with "JAG".

We don't have a Judge Advocate General in CAP and we don't have a JAG Corps in CAP.

Just because you're a legal officer, doesn't mean you're JAG. That's a specific term that applies to members of the Judge Advocate General Corps of the US Military. They are specifically military lawyers.

It's about as valid as a CAP medical officer calling himself the CAP Surgeon General.

The term "officer" has multiple meanings. Per Merriam-Webster:

1 aobsolete : agent b: one charged with police duties
2: one who holds an office of trust, authority, or command <the officers of the bank> <chief executive officer>
3 a: one who holds a position of authority or command in the armed forces ; specifically : commissioned officer b: the master or any of the mates of a merchant or passenger ship

The term is appropriate for a paramilitary organization. The term "JAG" is not appropriate to CAP, as we have no such position or officer in CAP. Those using it are wrong to do so. And as has been pointed out, CAP has not "approved" it.

[JayT]

That post was almost impossible to read, but what's wrong with SM again?

Also, 'Officer' was never an offical term, it was how CAP SM's were suppose to be indentifed in external publications.

[Hawk200]

....but what ever if the National Staff says its JAG then its JAG,...

That's the issue. The National Staff does not say it's "JAG", and (to my knowledge) has never said it's "JAG". Therefore, using the term is wrong. There are people that try to use military terminology that does not apply to CAP. An example of similar misrepresentation would be the highest medical officer in CAP calling themself the "CAP Surgeon General". The term does not apply.

Any terminology not approved or utilized by CAP is incorrect. At best, it's a mistake, at worst, it's intentional misrepresentation (or lying, depending on which term you prefer to use).  We have enough people that deliberately misrepresent themselves as CAP, we don't need any more. If CAP doesn't have it in their pubs, you don't use the terms.

Second, Senior Members are now termed officers. No, it's not a commisioned military officer, it's not a bank officer, it's not a police officer, but it is still called "Officer". It implies a granted trust, an authority, and given responsibility. It's appropriate. It needs to be taken seriously. We're not commisioned military officers, but it doesn't matter. Each "officer" of Civil Air Patrol needs to hold themself to a high standard. The trust given shouldn't be diminished by saying "Well, I'm not a real officer..."

[Eclipse]

Second, Senior Members are now termed officers. No, it's not a commisioned military officer, it's not a bank officer, it's not a police officer, but it is still called "Officer". It implies a granted trust, an authority, and given responsibility. It's appropriate. It needs to be taken seriously. We're not commisioned military officers, but it doesn't matter. Each "officer" of Civil Air Patrol needs to hold themself to a high standard. The trust given shouldn't be diminished by saying "Well, I'm not a real officer..."

No, they are not.

The use of the term "Officer" as a generic replacement for "Senior Member" was derived from a suggestion made by HWSRN, it was never used officially in any regulation, nor adopted by NHQ.

It was, however, officially disavowed during the same meetings that rescinded the use of "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL".

[CPT Anderson]

Mr. Pig,

Why would we want to copy the 'Army'!  I thought JAG was a TV Show.   

What's wrong with the Army?  I've been to Iraq twice to protect your freedom as part of the Army, what have you done?                    JAG the TV show was Navy.

[CPT Anderson]

We should make a mock TV show about CAP JAG!  Who's in? 

I call being the guy that gets the hot girl 

Hey, if they manage to get Catherine Bell to play the female lead, I'll take any part they want to give me.

Hey now...what about us females in here?  Sexist?  Hmmmmmmmm......maybe I could be the hot girl!   

[Eclipse]

To bring this thread back to the original topic.

I don't know what their duties would be, posting, etc., but a number of our legal officers are being sent to what is being called by CAP as "Judge Advocate Training" this year.

[SM-MADDOG]

You are both correct, and no its doesnt mean the CAP Officer is a fake Officer LOL. But terms is what I was saying. Does anyone really want CAP to call it JAG though? What ever its called now seems to be working and that good old saying they have "if it aint broke dont fix it" lol.

Second, Senior Members are now termed officers. No, it's not a commisioned military officer, it's not a bank officer, it's not a police officer, but it is still called "Officer". It implies a granted trust, an authority, and given responsibility. It's appropriate. It needs to be taken seriously. We're not commisioned military officers, but it doesn't matter. Each "officer" of Civil Air Patrol needs to hold themself to a high standard. The trust given shouldn't be diminished by saying "Well, I'm not a real officer..."

No, they are not.

The use of the term "Officer" as a generic replacement for "Senior Member" was derived from a suggestion made by HWSRN, it was never used officially in any regulation, nor adopted by NHQ.

It was, however, officially disavowed during the same meetings that rescinded the use of "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL".

[SJFedor]

Just for all the people talking about making a TV show out of this...




Questions?



(sorry, kinda sarcastic this morning)

[Always Ready]

^ That's AWESOME!

Now back on topic. What someone puts on LinkedIn and what someone puts on official correspondence are two totally different things. As long as they are not using it on official correspondence, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss over it. While I don't agree with using a different job title on your resume than what CAP generally uses, who's to say that the Wing King (or Queen) didn't create a position with that title. I don't know if that's authorized or not, but seriously who's going to stop them? That individual may have just been trying to fluff their resume or make the position sound more military or more important than what it is.

[CPT Anderson]

Just for all the people talking about making a TV show out of this...




Questions?



(sorry, kinda sarcastic this morning)

:clap:

[CPT Anderson]

^ That's AWESOME!

Now back on topic. What someone puts on LinkedIn and what someone puts on official correspondence are two totally different things. As long as they are not using it on official correspondence, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss over it. While I don't agree with using a different job title on your resume than what CAP generally uses, who's to say that the Wing King (or Queen) didn't create a position with that title. I don't know if that's authorized or not, but seriously who's going to stop them? That individual may have just been trying to fluff their resume or make the position sound more military or more important than what it is.

Not to go back to the whole military thing again, however, as far as resumes, etc, go.....you have to make your title known and simplified.  (ie - instead of Control Tower Operator, I usually put Air Traffic Controller, even though that isn't the technical term)...

[Eclipse]

Here's what wiki says a JAG is:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Advocate_General%27s_Corps

"...are charged with the defense and prosecution of military law as provided in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Officers of the Corps are the chief officers of the court-martial and court of inquiry. The Corps also provides service members with a wide range of legal services free of charge, and supports military combat operations by advising commanders on the law of armed conflict..."

Would it really be that much of a stretch to reword it as below for CAP?  Especially if these members attend some sort of formal training as such?

"...are charged with the defense and prosecution of CAP regulations. Officers of the Corps are the chief officers of the Inspector General and court of inquiry. The Corps also provides service members with a wide range of legal services free of charge, and supports Search and Rescue operations by advising commanders on the civil laws related to response and liability..."

So for MARB, IG, and similar situations, CAP appoints JAG officers as both defense and prosecution to insure full transparency and autonomy.  All too often members terminated suffer from a lack of knowledge of the applicable regs in the same way the average rank-and-file member of a combatant service doesn't know the nuances of the UCMJ.

The biggest difference would be the limit of consequences being internal to CAP, though I suppose in situations of gross civil liability or criminal conduct, if the JAGs were lawyers, they could assist and prepare outside prosecutions and lawsuits.

Our legal officers, today, are barred from being IGs by regulation (so I am told by mine).  Assuming any would want the above position, its not that much of a stretch.

[Always Ready]

^ That's AWESOME!

Now back on topic. What someone puts on LinkedIn and what someone puts on official correspondence are two totally different things. As long as they are not using it on official correspondence, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss over it. While I don't agree with using a different job title on your resume than what CAP generally uses, who's to say that the Wing King (or Queen) didn't create a position with that title. I don't know if that's authorized or not, but seriously who's going to stop them? That individual may have just been trying to fluff their resume or make the position sound more military or more important than what it is.

Not to go back to the whole military thing again, however, as far as resumes, etc, go.....you have to make your title known and simplified.  (ie - instead of Control Tower Operator, I usually put Air Traffic Controller, even though that isn't the technical term)...

Not always...I've seen plenty of former military members use their military job title and then in the description name the civilian equivalent. (And before I start getting flak since I am not in the military...the reason I know this is because I helped edit and critique my father's resume and several of our family friends that are retired military).

On a side note, in one of my annoying introductory college classes that I took last year, we were told NOT to just make up or use a similar job title. Apparently, there are enough people fudging a little bit on their resumes that it is becoming a major problem. If you don't have a document proving that that was your official job title, some companies will tear up your application or turn you in for fraud. I know it is a bit of a scare tactic but I have seen it happen to people.

Back to your thread in progress...

[Flying Pig]

^Its always been like that, at least in the professional areas I've been involved in.  If your going to put an official title on your resume, you better have documentation to back it up.  Even if its something as simple as an email from a supervisor calling you "Detective" or "Manager".  Especially if your moving within the same profession, the people reviewing your resume will know. Just put whatever you were called without trying to equate it to your new job.  Let the employer ask you, sometimes it opens the door to let you brag about yourself a little more.

Really stray away from fluff.  I dont know how many resumes Ive seen from 21 yr old E-3's where they write "Soley responsible for over $120 million dollars of equipment and explosives, nuclear weapons and the potential destruction of the universe and the lives of 15 crew members and their famlies..yada yada..." when they were a crew chief on a military bomber or something.  When they could have writted "Crew Chief B-1 Bomber-Responsible for the safe operation of....reported directly to the Chief of Maintenance....etc" I use that as a real example....maybe not the destruction of the universe part, but the kid was impressive on his own and he tried to fluff it up so much it made your eyes hurt reading it.  Did he Lie?  Absolutely not, what he said was technically true I guess.....but it was a little over the top.

People know fluff.  And if they dont understand the resume, at least in police work where you have a number of people from various backgrounds, they will find someone to interpret your resume.  Dont look like a fluff monkey!

[Al Sayre]

To bring this thread back to the original topic.

I don't know what their duties would be, posting, etc., but a number of our legal officers are being sent to what is being called by CAP as "Judge Advocate Training" this year.

It's possible that they are working on some VSAF type program that would allow our Legal Officers to assist or replace military JAG Officers in CONUS like the Chaplains currently do.  They would need the additional training to ensure that our Legal Officers are familiar with the nuances of the UCMJ and military law.  I'd suspect that before I believed that CAP was going to have their own JAG Corps, and it seems like a pretty good idea.

[RiverAux]

I think at the recent NEC they approved some sort of generic name describing all lawyers in CAP.  I don't quite remember what it was...

Yeah I was looking for minutes or some document to the same effect... I remember some actions related to lawyers in CAP, terminology and structure, etc.   Hmm...

Just wanted to bring up again that CAP has approved a generic name for all CAP lawyers based on my viewing of the meeting where it was done.  Obviously hasn't made it into writing yet. 

[RogueLeader]

All I know is that CAPR 10-1 Sections A5-1 and A6-1  both use "JA" for Staff Judge Advocate for CAP-USAF and Legal Officer for CAP.  So while JAG is not authorized; it does have a basis for use. 

The conection between JA and JAG, at least to me, is clear and I have no problem with the usage as such- provided there is no attempt to impersonate a Military JAG.

[SM-MADDOG]

I have what we call a security officer license from the dept of public safety, division of homeland security, on the card it says My State Name im from and Security Guard, but My title is Security Officer, thats what is on my badge, that is My rank officer. Now security guard and security officer are both the same they are private officer's. Same thing with a police officers certification it says Peace Officer but title may be Police Officer, Deputy, Trooper, Agent, etc. Same with security personnel. Also We have a law in our state which refers to security guard, private investigator, as private police officer 2921.51 (2). www.privateofficer.com

So I on my resume and any application I use title security officer.

^ That's AWESOME!

Now back on topic. What someone puts on LinkedIn and what someone puts on official correspondence are two totally different things. As long as they are not using it on official correspondence, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss over it. While I don't agree with using a different job title on your resume than what CAP generally uses, who's to say that the Wing King (or Queen) didn't create a position with that title. I don't know if that's authorized or not, but seriously who's going to stop them? That individual may have just been trying to fluff their resume or make the position sound more military or more important than what it is.

Not to go back to the whole military thing again, however, as far as resumes, etc, go.....you have to make your title known and simplified.  (ie - instead of Control Tower Operator, I usually put Air Traffic Controller, even though that isn't the technical term)...

Not always...I've seen plenty of former military members use their military job title and then in the description name the civilian equivalent. (And before I start getting flak since I am not in the military...the reason I know this is because I helped edit and critique my father's resume and several of our family friends that are retired military).

On a side note, in one of my annoying introductory college classes that I took last year, we were told NOT to just make up or use a similar job title. Apparently, there are enough people fudging a little bit on their resumes that it is becoming a major problem. If you don't have a document proving that that was your official job title, some companies will tear up your application or turn you in for fraud. I know it is a bit of a scare tactic but I have seen it happen to people.

Back to your thread in progress...