dues dropped?

[SARDOC]

Either way, CAP isn't INS and we have no need to be.  We are a private non-profit corporation.  We have volunteer membership, so our volunteers don't fall under the federal employment laws (we check the IDs of our actual paid employees).  Our "show me your papers" policy is self-inflicted and nobody can give any reason as to why we do it other than "because our regulations say so."  It seems circular to me.

If we want to base it off of precendent, JROTC doesn't check immigration status for enrollment.  Their cadets still hang out on Air Force Bases, fly in airplanes, get uniforms, go on field trips, attend encampment (SLS), and participate.  So, it can't be the Air Force imposing this rule on us.

There is no detriment to having a cadet who is not a citizen or doesn't have residency status.  Those minors are no more responsible for their status than the kid living in the meth house, both of whom are technically guilty of "crimes."  They can't help that their parents brought them to the US.  They can't help that their parents never applied for citizenship paperwork. 

When they turn 18, that's a different story. 

Before then, the worst that happens is we inspire some kid to love aviation and the United States.

I think one of the reasons we check is that the Federal Government actually provides us with Insurance in the event of death or injury.

JROTC cadets are not provided insurance, and their status is usually challenged by the school districts.

[PHall]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Next disaster please....

[SarDragon]

It very closely resembles the I-9 that employers have to use.

[SARDOC]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

[SarDragon]

People ineligible for SSANs can still get a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN).

[JeffDG]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Actually, no...it isn't.

There is no crime in the US Code outlawing being in the United States unlawfully.  None, zero, zip.

There is a crime for illegal entry into the United States, but it's rather difficult for a very young child to form the requisite mens rea to commit such a crime.  While it is true that their parents have committed a crime, the child most likely has not, and there is that whole prohibition on "corruption of blood" in the US Constitution.

[JeffDG]

People ineligible for SSANs can still get a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN).

ITINs are available, only when you can show proof of legal presence.

When I came to the United States, my daughter came with me in an "L-2" status.  That status does not authorize employment (at least for children, L-2 spouses of L-1 workers can work), and as such she was not eligible for a SSN.  We filed for an ITIN for her. 

You should have seen the quizical looks everyone from doctors to her school on down gave us when they asked for her SSN and we said "She is not eligible to have an SSN"

[JeffDG]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

Neither of those is correct.

In order to be a member of CAP, you need to be a US Citizen or a Lawful Permanent Resident.  If you are legally in the US in any number of other statuses, you require a waiver up to NHQ (trust me, I did this!).

Many people could well be eligible for such waivers but not be eligible for SSNs.  Above I mentioned L-2 children of L-1 workers are not SSN elibible.  H-4 children of H-1b workers are also ineligible.  TN-2 children of Canadian/Mexican TN-1 (NAFTA treaty visas) are not eligible to work and are thus ineligible for SSNs.

[JeffDG]

I think one of the reasons we check is that the Federal Government actually provides us with Insurance in the event of death or injury.

Not for cadets under the age of 18 they don't.  FTCA/FECA only kick in for personnel over the age of 18.  Younger cadets are covered only by corporate insurance.

[JeffDG]

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

Please cite the portion of the US Code that your hypothetical 12 year old is violating just by standing on US Soil, please.

[SARDOC]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

Neither of those is correct.

In order to be a member of CAP, you need to be a US Citizen or a Lawful Permanent Resident.  If you are legally in the US in any number of other statuses, you require a waiver up to NHQ (trust me, I did this!).

Many people could well be eligible for such waivers but not be eligible for SSNs.  Above I mentioned L-2 children of L-1 workers are not SSN elibible.  H-4 children of H-1b workers are also ineligible.  TN-2 children of Canadian/Mexican TN-1 (NAFTA treaty visas) are not eligible to work and are thus ineligible for SSNs.

I agree.  There are many tools available when immigrating to this country to establish presence.  The above is just one avenue.  There are waivers available for other needs for immigrants to get an actual SSAN.  If you deal with the federal government long enough you will realize everything is waiverable.  It's not always easy and requires special circumstances...that's why my statement wasn't as specific as yours.  Good information though.


This is a general catch all statement found on SSA's website.  I'm sure if I really dug I could find more.

If you are not authorized by DHS to work in the United States, you can get a Social Security number only if you can prove you need it for a valid non-work reason. That might happen, for example, if a state or federal law requires you to have a Social Security number to obtain benefits to which you have already established entitlement.   

Our wing, we had a member who was neither a Citizen or Lawful permanent resident.  He was actually a member of a foreign military service and just happened to be assigned here for 5 years.  He was one of the best mission pilots we had.  I knew there was a waiver process, but they are still allowed to become members...it just requires the waiver.